Discussion on malty German beers

[TheMadKing]

Screw it... I'm going to make an English Bitter

 

[Schlenkerla]

Screw it... I'm going to make an English Bitter

Using HODO?

 

[Schlenkerla]

You should try an 8th factor, rauch malt.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I will say this thread has inspired me to pick up this book again and read the sections on German and Czech brewing. I think @Jayjay1976 made a comment of BIAB and decoction, it made me recall a book I had on an easy decoction. It's this one.

Like the German purity law Rheinheitsgebote, I recall the Czechs one time had a rule about all or certain beer requires to be made from a decoction mash. It's worth finding that. My rauchbiers that I make supposedly should be made from a double decoction.

I'm no fan of this LODO.... I admit haven't read much about it my 12 years of brewing. I will though to just form a better opinion. That said, I'm thinking of great beer was brewed using historical traditions for centuries. Transferring beer to kegs under pressure verses gravity seems like it's driven partly by CO2 and anxiety.

This LODO thing sounds like the English's CAMRA. My guess CAMRA would declare war on LODO or would they be allies? CAMRA being steeped in tradition and not liking CO2. LODO seems to be a departure from tradition. Hmmmm. My enemy's enemy is my friend. Y/N?

Need to read the book and stop with random thoughts....

 

[cactusgarrett]

Screw it... I'm going to make an English Bitter

You just need to start a thread and state that you DON'T want to discuss the exact topic you DO want to discuss. It will have the best, most pertinent information ever!

 

[Die_Beerery]

Historical German beer was nothing like modern day German beer. Modern German beer is fueled by science and technology. I'm not saying you can't make a good tasting historical style beer. I am however saying, that it will not taste like modern beer.. because modern beer uses different techniques, it's really as simple as that.

Germany has been making "lodo" beer since the 70's (1970's).

The problem with homebrew books, is that they are nothing like the real books. You want to learn about real German brewing you read one of these..
https://www.vlb-berlin.org/en/books/technology_brewing_and_malting

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/p/di...MIw5Lrkv7-3gIVCtbACh1FXg79EAQYAiABEgLvdvD_BwE


THOSE are real books. Anyone worth their salt, will have these at the ready.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Historical German beer was nothing like modern day German beer. Modern German beer is fueled by science and technology. I'm not saying you can't make a good tasting historical style beer. I am however saying, that it will not taste like modern beer.. because modern beer uses different techniques, it's really as simple as that.

Germany has been making "lodo" beer since the 70's (1970's).

The problem with homebrew books, is that they are nothing like the real books. You want to learn about real German brewing you read one of these..
https://www.vlb-berlin.org/en/books/technology_brewing_and_malting

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/p/di...MIw5Lrkv7-3gIVCtbACh1FXg79EAQYAiABEgLvdvD_BwE


THOSE are real books. Anyone worth their salt, will have these at the ready.

Maybe a bad stereotype, I thought that most German breweries were following tradition to a near religious standpoint. The only brewery that I know, or corresponded with, is the owner of is the Schlenkerla in Bamberg. Matthias Trum said he and the Weyermans were following the malting methods that their families have practiced for centuries.

Thanks for the above post of info.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I'm starting to come around to the whole LODO concept. As much as I would like to dismiss it as newfangled tomfoolery, there is something to be said for constantly striving to improve quality.

It's like, I might cook my grandma's recipes exactly as they were handed down to me but I cook them in my modern kitchen, with modern tools and techniques. Though I may always try to recreate exactly the taste that I remember from my childhood, Grandma's Sauerbraten only got better when I started cooking it in a sous vide.

I wonder what she would have thought about vacuum sealed bags of meat floating in a plastic tub, not to mention using a propane torch in the house!

 

[Die_Beerery]

Maybe a bad stereotype, I thought that most German breweries were following tradition to a near religious standpoint. The only brewery that I know, or corresponded with, is the owner of is the Schlenkerla in Bamberg. Matthias Trum said he and the Weyermans were following the malting methods that their families have practiced for centuries.

Thanks for the above post of info.

It’s a romantic notion. It served it purpose. Now it’s more of a marketing deal. Don’t get my wrong they follow it. With technology and science brought many a cheats. I.e galvanized pipe strategically located in the brewed to pick up zinc, water salts, hop extract, lab propagated yeast oozing with zinc, etc etc.

What I have learned in my German encounters is that there is much more than what meets the eye. Sure Weyermann is decades old, sure they follow age old techniques however they are much like Jayjay and his sousvide. They are follow said techniques with cutting edge technology and science to get not only a better product (malt modification, lower protien, better extract) more product and a more consistent product. Just like the farmers growing the barley for decades, but now with herbicide gps and self driving tractors. [emoji6]

We all want to believe that history was somehow better, it’s nostalgic and cool to learn about. The sad truth is in the case of beer, it wasn’t even close. Take decoction for instance. Decoction was not some beer enhancing product is was brought about out of necessity. They didn’t have thermometers, and had poor grain quality. That’s it. Nothing more nothing less. You could take a volume of grain, heat that to a known consistent temp (boiling) add it back and that would raise the temp of main portion. Easy peasy. Due to science and technology we now have thermometers and can heat in other ways. They studied the beers made with the different methods and found more bad than good and stopped.
In the case of macro beer decoction was stopped again out of necessity. Power consumption and time consumption were probably the biggest factors. Takes a lot of time and energy to heat large volumes to boil and hold them. Much faster to just heat the entire volume and step though. Also the drive to knock out 4-6 batches in a day pretty much stopped it in its tracks. That and modern malt just doesn’t need it anymore.

The real story is that the Japanese really started to pioneer brewing science and technology, and zee Germans were the first to jump on the bandwagon.

The REAL secret to malty German beers is this. Mashing and brewing in the absence of oxygen does a few things. Namely way less color pick up, and it doesn’t oxidize malts (specifically cara, and melanoidan heavy malts). So there for a German pilsner is rarely just pilsner or pils and carafoam. with say a high portion of cara or Munich malts gets super malty yet dry from all the melaoidian in the specialty malt.
Take for instance this beer, which is my pilsner. What do you think the grainbill is?

How about this helles?

 

[Bassman2003]

I'm starting to come around to the whole LODO concept. As much as I would like to dismiss it as newfangled tomfoolery, there is something to be said for constantly striving to improve quality.

It's like, I might cook my grandma's recipes exactly as they were handed down to me but I cook them in my modern kitchen, with modern tools and techniques. Though I may always try to recreate exactly the taste that I remember from my childhood, Grandma's Sauerbraten only got better when I started cooking it in a sous vide.

I wonder what she would have thought about vacuum sealed bags of meat floating in a plastic tub, not to mention using a propane torch in the house!

I am new to it but that way I think of low oxygen brewing is comparing it to an apple. When you slice up an apple and set it out on a table it starts to turn brown in 5-10 minutes. Everybody probably knows this and the effect is oxygen interacting with the apple. Why would this be any different with malted barley and wheat?

As a homebrewer, "grain" was always something I knew was a living product but at the end of the day, it was just something I picked up and threw in the mash water. The bottom line to accepting low oxygen principles is that the grain "stales" wayyyy quicker than most of us ever thought of. Think back to the apple - 5 or 10 minutes. How long is the time from dough in to boil? Not tomfoolery but just a natural process that happens with all food products.

I know the OP stated he did not want to talk about LODO but the answers given up until the point did not really get him very far imho. His brewing practices seem very sound so I brought it up as a fellow brewer, not an evangelist. I do not want to brew with stale apples.

 

[Schlenkerla]

It’s a romantic notion. It served it purpose. Now it’s more of a marketing deal. Don’t get my wrong they follow it. With technology and science brought many a cheats. I.e galvanized pipe strategically located in the brewed to pick up zinc, water salts, hop extract, lab propagated yeast oozing with zinc, etc etc.

What I have learned in my German encounters is that there is much more than what meets the eye. Sure Weyermann is decades old, sure they follow age old techniques however they are much like Jayjay and his sousvide. They are follow said techniques with cutting edge technology and science to get not only a better product (malt modification, lower protien, better extract) more product and a more consistent product. Just like the farmers growing the barley for decades, but now with herbicide gps and self driving tractors. [emoji6]

We all want to believe that history was somehow better, it’s nostalgic and cool to learn about. The sad truth is in the case of beer, it wasn’t even close. Take decoction for instance. Decoction was not some beer enhancing product is was brought about out of necessity. They didn’t have thermometers, and had poor grain quality. That’s it. Nothing more nothing less. You could take a volume of grain, heat that to a known consistent temp (boiling) add it back and that would raise the temp of main portion. Easy peasy. Due to science and technology we now have thermometers and can heat in other ways. They studied the beers made with the different methods and found more bad than good and stopped.
In the case of macro beer decoction was stopped again out of necessity. Power consumption and time consumption were probably the biggest factors. Takes a lot of time and energy to heat large volumes to boil and hold them. Much faster to just heat the entire volume and step though. Also the drive to knock out 4-6 batches in a day pretty much stopped it in its tracks. That and modern malt just doesn’t need it anymore.

The real story is that the Japanese really started to pioneer brewing science and technology, and zee Germans were the first to jump on the bandwagon.

The REAL secret to malty German beers is this. Mashing and brewing in the absence of oxygen does a few things. Namely way less color pick up, and it doesn’t oxidize malts (specifically cara, and melanoidan heavy malts). So there for a German pilsner is rarely just pilsner or pils and carafoam. with say a high portion of cara or Munich malts gets super malty yet dry from all the melaoidian in the specialty malt.
Take for instance this beer, which is my pilsner. What do you think the grainbill is?
View attachment 600345

How about this helles?
View attachment 600346

Guessing "German Base Malts" Pilsner & Munich.

There's a common recurrence here, Jeff Alworth said the malt is what American homebrewers overlook

Jeff Alworth said the secret to a Malty Helles is "German Grains". This is from the mouth of Florian Kuplent at Urban Chestnut.

This book goes on to talk about best Weizen/weissbier is made with open fermentation to get more esters and phenols. Using your brew kettle vs your fermenter since it has wider opening. Again "Using German Grains" - Hans Peter Drexler, Scheider & Sohn

Same with Alts and Kolsch it "German Malt" and very hard water. - Christoph Tenge, Hausbraueri Uerige

Now Gose, "German Malt", kettle sour from wheat malt, and tall cylindrical fermenters to keep ester and phenols down. A tiny about of table salt. - Matthias Richter, Bayerischer Banhoff

And Weisse, "German Malt possibly French Wheat", no hops, no air, use speise for high carbonation. - Alan Taylor, Zoiglhaus Brewing

 

[Schlenkerla]

Take for instance this beer, which is my pilsner. What do you think the grainbill is?
View attachment 600345

View attachment 600346

Your turn... guess...

Two grain ingredients in all three beers....

Both are German Malts....


Rauchbier with Apple

Grazter with Oak

Rauchbier with Beech

 

[Die_Beerery]

Yes, I know Florian. But of course the secret to german beer is german grains.. What else would it be?

The pilsner has 20% light munich, and the helles has a base malt of 2srm (normally 1.6 or so), and 8% carahell.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Yes, I know Florian. But of course the secret to german beer is german grains.. What else would it be?

The pilsner has 20% light munich, and the helles has a base malt of 2srm (normally 1.6 or so), and 8% carahell.

From what I read its mainly that fact, of using German grains. He mentions many American brewers try to use domestic grains.

He mentions there's no real tricks to brewing a great lager. Small breweries decoct. Many larger ones don't. Weihenstephan uses decoction, Ayinger doesn't. A Helles beer doesn't require decoction but one can do a single or a double.

The important points are the ingredients the documenting the process, that lighter styles are hard to keep consistent with the controls that most homebrewers have at their disposal.

His Helles recipe was GERMAN Pilsner 97% and CaraHell 3%. Step infusion, 122F, 144F, 162F, 172F.

Hallertauer at 90 min 8 IBU, 45 min 5 IBU, 10 min 5 IBU.

Ferment 7-10 days 46F, lager 3 weeks 30F

Wyeast 2206/2308 or White Labs wlp830/833

 

[Schlenkerla]

Yes, I know Florian. But of course the secret to german beer is german grains.. What else would it be?

The pilsner has 20% light munich, and the helles has a base malt of 2srm (normally 1.6 or so), and 8% carahell.

Both the dark rauch are Avanguard Pale malt converted into rauch via home smoking and then some home made black malt.

The gratzer is all oak smoked, half German pilsner and American wheat.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Didn't mean to over-state the obvious. But Alworth claims the maltiness comes from the German grain not so much the process.


Common subs.... For Weyermans

When you get Pilsner are you getting American 2-row, when you get Munich are you getting Briess' Bonlander, Vienna vs Ashburne. The American equivalent of the German grain.

https://www.brew.is/files/malt.html

Kinda like is orange roughy really orange roughy or is it some other fish flesh that is white.

 

[Die_Beerery]

W does not decoct any lagers.

 

[Schlenkerla]

W does not decoct any lagers.

That's what I read, it didn't make a distinction when it was stated. One would assume it was lager in the context of Helles.

Page #74

Page #75

 

[Schlenkerla]

That 2nd page was blurry... #75

 

[schematix]

It’s a romantic notion. It served it purpose. Now it’s more of a marketing deal. Don’t get my wrong they follow it. With technology and science brought many a cheats. I.e galvanized pipe strategically located in the brewed to pick up zinc, water salts, hop extract, lab propagated yeast oozing with zinc, etc etc.

What I have learned in my German encounters is that there is much more than what meets the eye. Sure Weyermann is decades old, sure they follow age old techniques however they are much like Jayjay and his sousvide. They are follow said techniques with cutting edge technology and science to get not only a better product (malt modification, lower protien, better extract) more product and a more consistent product. Just like the farmers growing the barley for decades, but now with herbicide gps and self driving tractors. [emoji6]

We all want to believe that history was somehow better, it’s nostalgic and cool to learn about. The sad truth is in the case of beer, it wasn’t even close. Take decoction for instance. Decoction was not some beer enhancing product is was brought about out of necessity. They didn’t have thermometers, and had poor grain quality. That’s it. Nothing more nothing less. You could take a volume of grain, heat that to a known consistent temp (boiling) add it back and that would raise the temp of main portion. Easy peasy. Due to science and technology we now have thermometers and can heat in other ways. They studied the beers made with the different methods and found more bad than good and stopped.
In the case of macro beer decoction was stopped again out of necessity. Power consumption and time consumption were probably the biggest factors. Takes a lot of time and energy to heat large volumes to boil and hold them. Much faster to just heat the entire volume and step though. Also the drive to knock out 4-6 batches in a day pretty much stopped it in its tracks. That and modern malt just doesn’t need it anymore.

The real story is that the Japanese really started to pioneer brewing science and technology, and zee Germans were the first to jump on the bandwagon.

The REAL secret to malty German beers is this. Mashing and brewing in the absence of oxygen does a few things. Namely way less color pick up, and it doesn’t oxidize malts (specifically cara, and melanoidan heavy malts). So there for a German pilsner is rarely just pilsner or pils and carafoam. with say a high portion of cara or Munich malts gets super malty yet dry from all the melaoidian in the specialty malt.
Take for instance this beer, which is my pilsner. What do you think the grainbill is?

How about this helles?

I’m curious where you get your glassware?

 

[Schlenkerla]

Might as well include the preceding page. #73

 

[Die_Beerery]

I guess, this is the reason why I don't read home brew books. They are all wrong, and to me if they are wrong about german beers, I am sure they are wrong about others.

 

[Die_Beerery]

I’m curious where you get your glassware?

Rastal and Sahm

 

[Schlenkerla]

I guess, this is the reason why I don't read home brew books. They are all wrong, and to me if they are wrong about german beers, I am sure they are wrong about others.

How do we know that you're NOT the one that's wrong?

Did you learn from a pro?

Maybe your pro learned from homebrew books going back a 1000 years.

What if your pro was wrong and now you're wrong?

Also maybe the brewery lied about decoction just to throw you off the malty beer trail and they are now decocting in secret? Hmm?

You certainly like painting with a large paint brush....

... now show me your mash paddle!

 

[Jayjay1976]

I guess, this is the reason why I don't read home brew books. They are all wrong, and to me if they are wrong about german beers, I am sure they are wrong about others.

Opinion of one?

 

[Die_Beerery]

How do we know that you're NOT the one that's wrong?

Did you learn from a pro?

Maybe your pro learned from homebrew books going back a 1000 years.

What if your pro was wrong and now you're wrong?

Also maybe the brewery lied about decoction just to throw you off the malty beer trail and they are now decocting in secret? Hmm?

You certainly like painting with a large paint brush....

... now show me your mash paddle!View attachment 600393

I learned from Wehienstephan. With in the last few years. Nothing but current day in my process.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Opinion of one?

As in do I have a book I recommend?

 

[Schlenkerla]

I learned from Wehienstephan. With in the last few years. Nothing but current day in my process.

Ok - cool! I was just joking earlier.

 

[Schlenkerla]

As in do I have a book I recommend?

That would be yes.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Yea. Those 2 I linked earlier. One is german only (Narziß die bierbraueri band 2). Kunze is in English. Narziß is more geared towards Munich breweries, and Kunze is more towards the others. Both are required course materials. My 7 year old reads Kunze every night before bed.