Disappointing Results

[maltmeister]

I'll try to keep this post short and not terribly broad... I've been homebrewing for 2 or 3 years now, probably done 10-12 extract brews (kits mostly, and one partial mash kit). I've tried all kinds of styles from wheats to brown ales to porters. Through this whole journey something has been bugging me, though. It's this aroma/taste/aftertaste in all of my beers. Through many changes to perfect technique, it's always there to varying degrees. Difficult to characterize. I've read the chapters and posts on off flavors, haven't found one that exactly describes it. Almost like the chlorine-taste that has been described elsewhere; this kind of sharp, plastic-y flavor that you can even smell before taking a sip. More chemical-like than medicinal. It bugs me enough that no matter what I make, I ALWAYS prefer the taste of professionally-brewed beer (other than Bud, Coors, urine, et. al).

In terms of my technique, I've studied the forums and followed the general dictums. My temperatures are accurate, sanitation excellent (FYI, use Star-San), times according to recipe. I tried increasing my boil volumes, changing water type, added a wort chiller to the routine, switched from bucket to glass carboy. The ingredients are fresh (usually NB), tried pitching more yeast (double packs or making a starter), pitching temps around 70-75. Built a keezer that doubles as a fermentation chamber to make sure ferm temps are where they're supposed to be. Plenty of fermentation time (2-3wks in primary and 2-4 weeks in secondary).

I still can't get rid of the taste. It's a little less noticeable with stouts/porters and worse with IPAs, brown ales. I dilute to make sure I hit my OGs according to recipe, sometimes my FG is higher than target but when it bottle conditions or kegs (I usually split the batch to compare), it ends up actually LESS sweet than I'd like. I also NEVER get any malt sweetness. If there is any sweet flavor, it's a kind of thin, sugary sweet and not malty.

So I guess my question (finally!) is: what am I doing wrong? Is this just some kind of flavor that I'm particularly attuned to (that isn't in professionally-made beers)? The wife says she doesn't really notice it but I also don't see her going for the homebrew as often as the other beers we keep around. I don't live in an area with an active homebrew scene so I can't really taste other peoples brew to see if it's similar. I'm getting a little disheartened because each time I try to tighten my process and add techniques that are supposed to "improve" or "clean" the flavors but it's always the same.

Any thoughts, feedback would be MUCH appreciated.

 

[hunter306]

Chloramine. I get it if I use my city water untreated... Got some bottles down stairs that I just can't get through.

Campden tabs in the water during brewing work well to remove it and they're pretty cheap. http://www.homebrewing.org/Campden-Tablets-100-ct_p_391.html

 

[duboman]

Chloramine. I get it if I use my city water untreated... Got some bottles down stairs that I just can't get through.

Campden tabs in the water during brewing work well to remove it and they're pretty cheap. http://www.homebrewing.org/Campden-Tablets-100-ct_p_391.html

+1
If you want to experiment you can use bottled water or R/O that you can get from the machines at the store but you're describing the effects of chlorine/chloramines in your water.

The campden tabs will take care of it as well.


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[maltmeister]

Thanks for the feedback. I had read about chloramine and how it can't be removed by simply boiling the water. My next batch (a partial mash) I'm going to just use all spring water and totally eliminate that as a factor as a test, then switch to campden tablets if it works. I'm still a little dubious because I've made batches where I used no more than maybe 1-1.5 gallons of tap water and used distilled or spring for the rest and could still taste it. I certainly hope this is what the problem is because it's an easy fix.

 

[AllieLilyDaddy]

Just wanted to mention that although I'm too much of a NOOB to help, I really appreciate a well written post with excellent grammar! 😎


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[stevedasleeve]

I had that early on, got a carbon filter and all was well.

 

[Dynachrome]

I never thought about it, but part of my normal process is to get my water to a healthy simmer before I mash.

I get up to about 180 for a few minutes before I mash in.

AllieLilyDaddy [^]E are a// you're sp3lling missteaks OWN. :bigrin:

 

[Braufessor]

When you say you keep your fermentation temps "where they are supposed to be." What temp. are you talking? You say you are chilling to 70-75. That is too warm. You need to chill to 60-65 if possible. You also want to make sure your BEER TEMPERATURE is in the mid 60's when fermenting most beers.
I agree with the chlorine/Chloramine water issue and think the bottled water route is the way to go for a batch. But, I am also curious about your fermentation temps - that could play a role.

 

[AllieLilyDaddy]

AllieLilyDaddy [^]E are a// you're sp3lling missteaks OWN. :bigrin:

😉


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[redwing_al]

I had the same problem with taste, where they all had a specific character to them that I was not fond of. What I learned is that the taste that I didn't are for were all from the Brewer's Best kits.

I have since stopped using BB and I'm getting fresh ingredients from my local supply store and I'm quite pleased with the outcome of my last two beers!

try changing it up a bit - and maybe using spring water at .89/gallon and see how that goes for ya'.

 

[maltmeister]

When you say you keep your fermentation temps "where they are supposed to be." What temp. are you talking? You say you are chilling to 70-75. That is too warm. You need to chill to 60-65 if possible. You also want to make sure your BEER TEMPERATURE is in the mid 60's when fermenting most beers.
I agree with the chlorine/Chloramine water issue and think the bottled water route is the way to go for a batch. But, I am also curious about your fermentation temps - that could play a role.

Good point. The stick-on thermometer on my carboy usually reads 65-70 during fermentation. I typically try to counteract the exothermic nature of the first few days of fermentation where the temps can rise by either leaving the house cooler than usual (if in winter), or putting it in the keezer around 60degrees. Could the temps have gotten up to 70 or 72? Sure, but not for more than a day or two and I figured that would help with diacetyl anyways. As for pitching temp, I'd like for it to be lower but my tap water that runs through the wort chiller is probably only about 65 degrees (I live in the South) so I'd be chilling for an hour in order to get it to reach full equilibrium.

Again, thanks everyone for the help. Got a partial mash APA ready to start on Tuesday when I get off call!

 

[grathan]

You could chill in the keezer before pitching the yeast. The first part of fermentation is the most important to control temps.



As far as malty goes, what beers would you consider sweet and malty?

One thing you can do to retain sweetness is to use a less attenuate yeast strain. Also, upping steeping grain amounts that add sweetness. Examples ( crystal malt and honey malt ). Some people even add a unfermentable sugar to their beer like lactose.

For "malty" again you would up your steeping grain amounts (chocolate malt, biscuit malt). Yeast selection can also effect perceptions of "malty". Brewing water can also effect "malty" flavors (using distilled or bottled water will be more malty than well water that is high in bicarbonate).

 

[dsaavedra]

I have had the exact same issue with my first two bathes (extract kits from Jaspers and BB respectively). It is exactly as you describe; it is in the aroma, in the taste, and in the aftertaste (specifically when I burp... it's all I taste). I had a hard time describing it but I would say it is a kind of synthetic, plastic-y taste. Not quite medicinal or band-aid like. But it sounds like the same thing you have going on. I did some reading and have concluded it is either due to chloramine (most likely) or perhaps this is that "extract twang" you hear people talking about. I bought campden tablets and used them on my third batch. I'm bottling this batch next weekend, so I'll see if campden tablets clear up this off flavor. I may also consider doing a late extract addition on my next brew if I'm still dissatisfied with the third batch. I'm trying to only change one variable at a time to try to isolate the problem.

A note worth mentioning, this synthetic off flavor kind of faded away as my first batch aged a couple more weeks while I as drinking through them. I barely noticed the flavor at all in the last couple dozen bottles. I can't say the same for my second batch because it is only 3 weeks in the bottles and I've only tried 1, decided I wasn't satisfied with the flavor and I am going to let them age more instead of keep on drinking them to ensure that I don't like that flavor like I did with the first batch.

 

[trefilov22]

Thanks for the feedback. I had read about chloramine and how it can't be removed by simply boiling the water. My next batch (a partial mash) I'm going to just use all spring water and totally eliminate that as a factor as a test, then switch to campden tablets if it works. I'm still a little dubious because I've made batches where I used no more than maybe 1-1.5 gallons of tap water and used distilled or spring for the rest and could still taste it. I certainly hope this is what the problem is because it's an easy fix.

I've used nothing but spring water in my brews and have never tasted the effects that you are speaking of. I use spring water from my boils, all the way to priming, tap water (short of the tap water I use to clean/sterilize) goes into my brew. Sure it'll add a few extra bucks to the cost, but in the end, it's worth it to me.

 

[maltmeister]

Really appreciate the feedback. I just bought 8 gal of Publix Spring Water in preparation of my brew day tomorrow (partial mash IPA). Anyone happen to know the mineral content of their water? I sent and email and haven't gotten a reply from them.

Also, I have noticed that the undesirable twang improves with time, but it takes a WHILE. Like 5-7 weeks in the bottle at minimum and sometimes never resolves.


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[max384]

My first two batches were extracts, and I was never really all that happy with them. They had an aftertaste that I just couldn't put my finger on. I don't know that I'd describe it quite the way you're describing it, but they didn't match any of the common off-tastes. I brought one to my LHBS, and the owner said it tasted good (and it was from an online kit, so he had not reason to tell me it tasted good if it didn't). My beers were drinkable, but they weren't good. I never really got excited about homebrewing, because I never loved my homebrews. In fact, I took two years off from homebrewing after only doing three extract batches.

I got back into brewing after the two year hiatus and jumped right into all grain. My beer went from blah to great pretty much immediately. I've basically chalked it up to extract twang. The next big jump in flavor came when I switched from bottling to kegging (or bottling with a beer gun from the keg). They just taste way cleaner to me.

tl;dr Might be extract twang.

 

[clickondan]

I'm chiming in for this reason: I'm not a highly experienced taster by any means, but I am particularly attuned to pick up the effect of extract twang. The taste for me is very similar to what you've described and is very difficult to ignore. It didn't make any difference as to when I added extract to the boil, all early, all late or both. I switched over to all-grain brewing primarily for this reason and obviously have not had this particular issue with my beers since the switch. Everyone is different in what they taste and perceive, but I'll bet you and I are similar in this regard.

 

[maltmeister]

Ok, I brewed my APA yesterday. Used ONLY spring water. Did a partial mash using 7lbs of grain and only needed 3lbs DME that I added near the end of the boil. I'll repost when I taste it to see if that frustrating taste is still there. Here's hoping...


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[hunter306]

I'll be interested in your follow-up (results).

What yeast did you end up pitching and what do the ferm temps look like there? I'd err on the side of cool to eliminate any other estery production that might skew results too.

Hoping for a good batch!

 

[unionrdr]

Extract twang isn't the plastic band-aid flavor. It's more like a caramelized off flavor to me. It comes from mallard reactions as the (usually) LME darkens in the boil. In 2.5-3.5 gallons of water,use about 1.5-2lbs of extract for the boil/hop additions. Ad the remaining extract at flame out. Since pasteurization happens in seconds at 160F,& the wort is still boiling hot,it works great. Lightens color & gives better flavor/aroma. Plastic/ band-aid flavors are from chlorine or chloromine usually.

 

[Conman13]

You could try a 1 gallon all-grain BIAB batch to see if the extract is the issue.

 

[KIAKillerXJ]

And yes, even using just a couple of gallons of tap, if it has chlormine, you'd be able to taste it. The taste threshold for it is very low.

Water. Pitch rate, and correct (65ish) during initial primary fermentation and extremely important

 

[maltmeister]

My boil was nearly the full volume, started at 5gal with about 1gal lost during the boil. I had read about burned extract flavors so I added the DME right at the end.

I pitched at 68F - used 2 packets of US-05 which I hydrated before-hand. Haven't seen the temp get above 68 yet and it's pretty active fermentation at this point.


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[unionrdr]

The burnt extract flavor is mainly from using LME,since it goes straight to the bottom of the kettle. Adding it on the heat will do that. So add LME off the heat & stir it in.

 

[flars]

My boil was nearly the full volume, started at 5gal with about 1gal lost during the boil. I had read about burned extract flavors so I added the DME right at the end.

I pitched at 68F - used 2 packets of US-05 which I hydrated before-hand. Haven't seen the temp get above 68 yet and it's pretty active fermentation at this point.


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Describe your rehydration method for the SA-05 in this batch of beer.

Did you get the odd flavor with different yeasts or was it more pronounced with one certain yeast?

Keep good notes on this one. Especially the wort temperature in the AM and PM.

 

[max384]

My boil was nearly the full volume, started at 5gal with about 1gal lost during the boil. I had read about burned extract flavors so I added the DME right at the end.

I pitched at 68F - used 2 packets of US-05 which I hydrated before-hand. Haven't seen the temp get above 68 yet and it's pretty active fermentation at this point.


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What was your OG? Was your yeast pack old? I'm just wondering if you're overpitching your yeast.

 

[maltmeister]

Describe your rehydration method for the SA-05 in this batch of beer.

Did you get the odd flavor with different yeasts or was it more pronounced with one certain yeast?

Keep good notes on this one. Especially the wort temperature in the AM and PM.

I use the method described by Palmer. About 1 cup of warm water to rehydrate then a tablespoon of DME that was dissolved in boiling water to proof. I've used dry yeast directly pitched, smack packs, and yeast starters. Many different strains. Seems to have no correlation with the off flavor.




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[maltmeister]

What was your OG? Was your yeast pack old? I'm just wondering if you're overpitching your yeast.

OG 1.060. I always make sure the yeast is fresh. I've definitely under pitched before but now use roughly the amount recommended by Beersmith.


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[flars]

You would be better off going to the Fermentis site for rehydration instructions. Palmers method recommends to warm of water. The yeast does not need to be proofed. Rehydrating the yeast in wort will weaken the yeast cell walls.

 

[unionrdr]

I rehydrate dry yeast in 400mL of water at 70-80F for about 30 minutes. Nothing added.