here is the water report for Pueblo, CO.http://www.pueblowater.org/images/files/Water_quality_summary-finished_water.pdf Its not exact, but assuming you're using tap this will get you in the right direction. You're water is tweakable, but it uses chloramine, need to treat that first. Until you learn more about tweaking water, I would switch to RO (reverse osmosis) from your local grocery store.
Disappointed.
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UndeadFred
Well-Known Member
RO. I personally have well water that tastes good and by accident makes good stouts. but trying to make any water that works out of 300 PPM TDS water is an act of futility. If you have even marginally bad water, go RO.
I can buy 30 gallons of store bought RO for the price of the Ward Labs report. I can buy 300 gallons for the price of a RO system and then I'd need to replace filters for 100 gallons more.
Now true I would recommend spending $6 on eBay for a TDS meter (and use distilled to "calibrate it". Mine reads 002 PPM on distilled and 005-007 on every RO water I'd bought. All had neutral pH's but actually showed a little refraction on a refractometer). But as long as you get a reading under 10 from the store bought, your additions will swamp it out.
If you do that and follow AJ's water you will have correct enough water for the styles he lists and it's minimal futzing around.
Having said that I will often cheat on dark amber, brown ales and stouts by using 2/3 to 1/2 RO and the balance of well water on those styles. You can figure it out. Darker beers tend to be easier to do with "bad" water and you certain should try one.
But I suspect strongly your two issues are water and maybe temperature control.. though you should have had issues with temperature control with your extract brews since at that point they should be no different.
Good luck.. Doing AJ's additions to RO is very easy and you should try it. Locally a 5 gallon carboy fill is $1.85... So I use about $2.25 worth of water for an average 5.5 gallon batch. Not horrible.
I can buy 30 gallons of store bought RO for the price of the Ward Labs report. I can buy 300 gallons for the price of a RO system and then I'd need to replace filters for 100 gallons more.
Now true I would recommend spending $6 on eBay for a TDS meter (and use distilled to "calibrate it". Mine reads 002 PPM on distilled and 005-007 on every RO water I'd bought. All had neutral pH's but actually showed a little refraction on a refractometer). But as long as you get a reading under 10 from the store bought, your additions will swamp it out.
If you do that and follow AJ's water you will have correct enough water for the styles he lists and it's minimal futzing around.
Having said that I will often cheat on dark amber, brown ales and stouts by using 2/3 to 1/2 RO and the balance of well water on those styles. You can figure it out. Darker beers tend to be easier to do with "bad" water and you certain should try one.
But I suspect strongly your two issues are water and maybe temperature control.. though you should have had issues with temperature control with your extract brews since at that point they should be no different.
Good luck.. Doing AJ's additions to RO is very easy and you should try it. Locally a 5 gallon carboy fill is $1.85... So I use about $2.25 worth of water for an average 5.5 gallon batch. Not horrible.
Durso81
Active Member
I would disagree, in my opinion there is no simple water additions, you need to know where your starting from if not starting from RO or distilled water. And need to know where you want your water to be and what to add to get there. Also need to have a ph meter and not those unreliable ph strips. Then you need to know what to do if your mash ph is high or low. There is more to water then just adding some gypsum or calcium chloride. How is your grain bill going to affect the mash ph with your water, the list goes on.
I just think when first starting in AG and not happy need to look at basics.
You don't NEED a pH meter, and you don't NEED to be able to adjust the pH of a mash in progress. You can get most of what you need by using a good water calculator like Bru'nWater.
- Add your water information based on a water report (either from your supplier or Ward Labs),
- Add your grain bill information,
- Pick a style water profile that matches what you are brewing (don't try to match a regional water profile),
- Adjust gypsum and calcium chloride additions to get the calcium, chloride and sulfate ions close to the targets for the style,
- Adjust lactic acid or baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) additions (don't use both, as they would just cancel each other) to get your predicted mash pH to 5.4 - 5.5,
- Brew
Brew on
Durso81
Active Member
You don't NEED a pH meter, and you don't NEED to be able to adjust the pH of a mash in progress. You can get most of what you need by using a good water calculator like Bru'nWater.
This will fix 90% of problems due to water. Unless you have really bad water, in which case you should start with RO or distilled. Don't use "spring" water unless you can get a water report for that water (cause you'll have no idea what's in it.)
- Add your water information based on a water report (either from your supplier or Ward Labs),
- Add your grain bill information,
- Pick a style water profile that matches what you are brewing (don't try to match a regional water profile),
- Adjust gypsum and calcium chloride additions to get the calcium, chloride and sulfate ions close to the targets for the style,
- Adjust lactic acid or baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) additions (don't use both, as they would just cancel each other) to get your predicted mash pH to 5.4 - 5.5,
- Brew
Brew on
This is what I do now except I do use a ph meter to see if the water calculator like Bru'n water are correct.
All I was getting at is that someone that has only done 3 all grain recipes and is still learning that process can make good beer with spring water from the store. I have made beers that have scored 40 out of 50 in competitions with spring water bought from the store. I think fermentation temp and conditioning time have allot of affect on beer off flavors.
I am not saying water has no affect on flavor cause it does it a huge ingredient in beer. Now I make water profiles from distilled water for every beer I make now until I get my water report done since my city does not provide the correct info needed.
Starting from RO is a piece of cake. Which is what I do. No need to think or second guess anything.
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Based on this, I bet you're getting astringency from sparging with only slightly diluted tap water. PH over 6 during spare will release tannins and give an awful after taste that is almost like bitterness, but worse.
Based on this, I bet you're getting astringency from sparging with only slightly diluted tap water. PH over 6 during spare will release tannins and give an awful after taste that is almost like bitterness, but worse.
Yes. Distilled won't have enough alkalinity (essentially 0) to raise the pH of the grain bed. Neither will RO.
Brew on
TasunkaWitko
Well-Known Member
I must say, I am very thankful to live where I live. Lewistown, Montana has some of the best water in the world coming right out of the taps, as they divert a portion of a very nice spring south of town into the municipal water supply. It is also distributed throughout the state.
Here's a breakdown of the mineral content etc:
http://www.bigspringwater.com/index.php?p=mineral-content
Interestingly, Lewistown had a brewery in the early 1900s that was pretty well renowned, until it burned down. There just might be one there again, in the near future, as well. This water is what I have used for all of my brewing, without exception, and I have never had a problem with it. Lighter beers, wheat beers, stouts, porters, brown ales - all have been very good with this.
Here's a breakdown of the mineral content etc:
http://www.bigspringwater.com/index.php?p=mineral-content
Interestingly, Lewistown had a brewery in the early 1900s that was pretty well renowned, until it burned down. There just might be one there again, in the near future, as well. This water is what I have used for all of my brewing, without exception, and I have never had a problem with it. Lighter beers, wheat beers, stouts, porters, brown ales - all have been very good with this.
It seems people are focusing too much on water. Yes it matters but to me off flavors lean towards cleaning & sanitation and/or fermentation temps. The first water tweak would be adding a campden tablet for the chloramine.
brew_darrymore
Well-Known Member
I must say, I am very thankful to live where I live. Lewistown, Montana has some of the best water in the world coming right out of the taps, as they divert a portion of a very nice spring south of town into the municipal water supply. It is also distributed throughout the state.
Here's a breakdown of the mineral content etc:
http://www.bigspringwater.com/index.php?p=mineral-content
Interestingly, Lewistown had a brewery in the early 1900s that was pretty well renowned, until it burned down. There just might be one there again, in the near future, as well. This water is what I have used for all of my brewing, without exception, and I have never had a problem with it. Lighter beers, wheat beers, stouts, porters, brown ales - all have been very good with this.
Do you acidify your sparge water? Your water is probably tasty but has a lot of alkalinity, over 150 ppm as CaCO3. Sparge water is recommended to have alkalinity below 20 ppm as CaCO3. I would be sparging with RO water instead.
TasunkaWitko
Well-Known Member
Hi, BD -
I do not sparge with anything except the same spring water. My batches are 1 gallon, so what I do is mash in 2 quarts of the spring water, then sparge over a lauter tun setup with the same water heated to 170 degrees. Results have always been very good-tasting beer, both in my judgment and in the judgment of those who have tried it.
One aspect that I hold to be valuable is that the region in which a beer (or wine, or even food) is created has a direct bearing on it, making it unique and giving it appreciable qualities; often those qualities are singular and special enough to outweigh any minor deficiencies. I believe this conept is called "Terroir ." It is a concept that I am a fan of.
I have not noticed any alkalinity in the taste of the beer, and so I have never felt a need to do as you suggest. Having said that, I'm always open to learning a thing or two. My dad (who brews with different water) and I are about to brew the exact same recipe at pretty much the same time, and the only appreciable difference will be in the water used. I will do a comparison of the final beers. This could give me a better evaluation of my water.
I do not sparge with anything except the same spring water. My batches are 1 gallon, so what I do is mash in 2 quarts of the spring water, then sparge over a lauter tun setup with the same water heated to 170 degrees. Results have always been very good-tasting beer, both in my judgment and in the judgment of those who have tried it.
One aspect that I hold to be valuable is that the region in which a beer (or wine, or even food) is created has a direct bearing on it, making it unique and giving it appreciable qualities; often those qualities are singular and special enough to outweigh any minor deficiencies. I believe this conept is called "Terroir ." It is a concept that I am a fan of.
I have not noticed any alkalinity in the taste of the beer, and so I have never felt a need to do as you suggest. Having said that, I'm always open to learning a thing or two. My dad (who brews with different water) and I are about to brew the exact same recipe at pretty much the same time, and the only appreciable difference will be in the water used. I will do a comparison of the final beers. This could give me a better evaluation of my water.
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