Did I steep or did I mash?

[NCSU_Brewer]

I brewed my first batch of beer (an American Hefe-Weizen kit) three weeks ago. The kit came with specialty grains, and the instructions said to steep the grains in 150-155F water for 30-45 minutes, then rinse with cold water.

I brought a pot of water up to 155F, submerged the muslin bag w/ grains, and monitored my gas range to keep the temp in range for 45 minutes. Then I rinsed the grains using cold water (as instructed by the recipe) and squeezed the bag to get the remaining liquid out.


After reading a lot of confusing pages on various sites, it seems as though most people remove their pot from the heat source when steeping. So did I do a steep or a mash of my grains? How will the difference affect my beer?

 

[vincentAlpha]

For me it would depend if there was any conversion going on. If it was a crystal malt or similar I'd be calling it a steep since all you are doing is releasing the sugars from the milled malt using hot water. If it was a mix of base and some other adjunct that needed conversion then it'd be a BIAB mash.

 

[MarshmallowBlue]

Like Vincent alludes to, a mash is a glorified steep. The difference being that specialty grains don't need anything converted to sugars, where base malts do.

A mash takes a little longer, (but in that same 152-156 range), and rinsing the grain after helps get you much more for your money.

 

[flars]

It would be a partial mash if there were unconverted malts in the grain mix. Either way, steeping grains or partial mash, I would have rinsed, or sparged, with 170° water. Recommending cold water in the recipe seems unusual.

 

[CJ-3]

Could you tell us what grains were used?

Mashing will mean converting starches to sugars for fermentation.
Steeping will draw the color from grains, but not much in the way of fermentable sufars.

 

[unionrdr]

Steeping. Mashing, even a partial mash, uses 1.25 to 1.5 quarts of water per pound of grains. Temp range about 147F to 155F generally. Mashing is generally one hour. Mashing converts starches to simple sugars. Steeping isn't as critical with water amounts. Usually done for 20-30 minutes. Sparging is always a good thing. But I sparge with 168-170F water to stop enzymatic reactions.

 

[aprichman]

Steeping. Mashing, even a partial mash, uses 1.25 to 1.5 quarts of water per pound of grains. Temp range about 147F to 155F generally. Mashing is generally one hour. Mashing converts starches to simple sugars. Steeping isn't as critical with water amounts. Usually done for 20-30 minutes. Sparging is always a good thing. But I sparge with 168-170F water to stop enzymatic reactions.

Mashing isn't really dependent on the amount of water used. There's a minimum amount of water needed to remove the ascorbic acid from the grain. Beyond that the ratio plays a role in sensory aspects of the mash like taste, smell, and mouthfeel. A lot of people who BIAB are winning home brewing awards and making great beers and mash around 2+ quarts per gallon.

Creating the proper conditions (type of grain, water temperature, water chemistry, pH, etc.) to activate diastase that convert starches into fermentable sugar is how I define mashing. Anything else, regardless of temperature or water to grain ratio would be considered steeping.

 

[adamdillabo]

I've always been told not to squeeze after you steep your grains as you get much more tannins that way.

 

[flars]

I've always been told not to squeeze after you steep your grains as you get much more tannins that way.

You can squeeze as hard as you want. Worst that can happen is hot fingers. Tannin extraction is related to temperature and pH.

 

[andrewmaixner]

You can squeeze as hard as you want. Worst that can happen is hot fingers. Tannin extraction is related to temperature and pH.

Yes, I have to wonder who first thought that one up, and what their thought process was -- and if they get mad at the bartender for bruising their gin

 

[NCSU_Brewer]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I'm at work and don't have my kit ingredients handy, but I'll post a list of the specialty grains when I get a chance later on tonight.

You can squeeze as hard as you want. Worst that can happen is hot fingers. Tannin extraction is related to temperature and pH.

Scorched fingers were definitely the toughest part of brew day. I tasted my beer prior to ptiching the yeast and after hydrometer readings at 7, 10, and 13 days. No off-flavors that I could discern, although I am a newbie!

 

[NCSU_Brewer]

Just checked my kit. The recipe had crystal malt 10L, Munich, and red wheat malt.

 

[unionrdr]

Mashing isn't really dependent on the amount of water used. There's a minimum amount of water needed to remove the ascorbic acid from the grain. Beyond that the ratio plays a role in sensory aspects of the mash like taste, smell, and mouthfeel. A lot of people who BIAB are winning home brewing awards and making great beers and mash around 2+ quarts per gallon.

Creating the proper conditions (type of grain, water temperature, water chemistry, pH, etc.) to activate diastase that convert starches into fermentable sugar is how I define mashing. Anything else, regardless of temperature or water to grain ratio would be considered steeping.

Water amounts in mashing are a bit more critical, as the PH can change for the worse if too much is used. It can also weaken diastatic power. I've found this to be true when mashing pilsner/lager malts for my hybrid lagers. Less water in that case is more. It seems to strengthen the enzymes that do the conversion. And being too specific about describing a given process when trying to help someone can get qa " huh? What?" from folks needing said advice. That's why I try to use simple language.

 

[aprichman]

Water amounts in mashing are a bit more critical, as the PH can change for the worse if too much is used. It can also weaken diastatic power. I've found this to be true when mashing pilsner/lager malts for my hybrid lagers. Less water in that case is more. It seems to strengthen the enzymes that do the conversion. And being too specific about describing a given process when trying to help someone can get qa " huh? What?" from folks needing said advice. That's why I try to use simple language.

Optimum pH (~5) increases diastase activity however the enzymes can still work in a slightly basic environment (up to pH 8). If you're starting with water that is pH 7 there should still be diastase activity irrelevant of the water to grain ratio. I would argue that this is still mashing, just not an ideal mash for making beer. I'm not even sure yeast would be able to survive if the overall pH was close to 7.

I agree that keeping things simple for new brewers is ideal, but disagree that 1.33 - 1.5 qt/lb is required for mashing. If you BIAB and need to use 2qt/lb it's absolutely fine. However you make a great point that someone using lighter malts with a high water to grain ratio won't hit a good pH for making beer unless they monitor (ideally with a pH meter but a pH calculator would also work) and adjust pH.

 

[Yooper]

Just checked my kit. The recipe had crystal malt 10L, Munich, and red wheat malt.

That is a 'mashing' recipe, so it sounds like you did a partial mash.

Regardless of all of the off-topic talk about pH and things, the technique for steeping and mashing really is nearly the same.

If you make conditions right for enzymatic activity, using water and grain and holding at a temperature of 145-160 for at least 30 minutes, and you're using grains like Munich and wheat malt, the starches will convert to sugar.

The amount of water really isn't critical, but a good practical amount is 1-2 quarts of water per pound of grain. It should convert even at a lesser or greater amount of water, but a rule of thumb is to stay in that area of liquid to grain.

 

[unionrdr]

It was my understanding that water to grain ratios for mashing are more critical than steeping for good enzyme activity/conversion even though the two are similar?

 

[Yooper]

It was my understanding that water to grain ratios for mashing are more critical than steeping for good enzyme activity/conversion even though the two are similar?

Yes, but there is a huge range, from probably .75 quarts/pound to over 3 quarts/pound depending on the make up of the water. It could even be more or less.

It's only 'critical' in that the proper mash pH is reached, and really has nothing to do with the pH of the water, so a good guestimate for most folks who don't check mash pH is 1-2 quarts/pound. It's a good solid rule of thumb, but more or less is generally ok as well.

If someone is using all RO water, for example, they could especially get enzymatic activity at a very thin mash since the mash pH is probably closer to ideal that using other waters (like 'spring water'), depending on the source.

In any case, this is the beginner's forum so we should be mindful to not split hairs and make it seem like mashing is rocket science. Thankfully, it's pretty simple and most people can mash without even knowing that is what they are doing!

 

[unionrdr]

Yeah, I found it to be quite simple indeed to do successfully. I found spring waters to be better for different beers depending on where they're from & which well into bedrock they come from. For example, White House Artesian Springs is better for malty beers. Giant Eagle spring water is better for hoppy beers. One of these days I'll get a PH meter to check them both for starters.
Anywho, 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 quarts per pound is a good rule of thumb for starters. I've used a bit less with 7 1/2lbs of grain in my 5 gallon kettle & just sparged a little hair more to get my 3 1/2 gallon boil volume & it worked quite well. My kottbusser recipe is a good example. A couple more weeks to sample that one. But pilsner color & dry, tart finish hinting at sweetness as historical records say. How much it retains remains to be seen. The point being you're right about slight variations in grist to water ratios. I've just come to the conclusion that less can be more overall...

 

[CreamyGoodness]

I now have the title of this thread in my head to the tune of "Should I stay or should I go"

 

[Curtis2010]

I now have the title of this thread in my head to the tune of "Should I stay or should I go"

Thanks for putting that in my head...now it wont go away...I'll be humming it on brew day now! ;-)

 

[unionrdr]

C'mon baby let me know...

 

[JustLooking]

Anywho, 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 quarts per pound is a good rule of thumb for starters.

 

[unionrdr]

And???