Did I rush my Stout

[dnslater]

New to home brewing and getting my pipeline going. I brewed an Irish Stout two weeks ago. I left it in the primary for about 6 days and then transferred to Secondary carboy. Of course after doing this I started reading up on this forum and see that everyone suggests leaving stout in the primary for 3-4 weeks and being much more patient.

It has been in the secondary for 8 days now. Took hydrometer readings and they have been stable for the past 3 or 4 days, also has good flavor. Am I ok to bottle this weekend, or would I gain anything by leaving it in the secondary for longer? What is the difference between aging in the secondary and aging in the bottles after priming? I plan to age in the bottles for 3-4 weeks before attempting to drink. I am also thinking about adding cold pressed coffee to 1/2 the batch in the bottling bucket.

For the record I have a Belgian Wit in the primary now and plan to leave it there for three weeks and be more patient for future brews. Will probably buy another primary bucket this weekend and start something new. Tough getting started with all of this waiting.

 

[jaycount]

Leave it longer for sure, 3 weeks minimum in the fermenter(s) (I leave it in the primary for that whole time, but you've already read that debate).

 

[Revvy]

Yeah, you rushed your stout....6 days, especially without 2 consequitve grav reading over three days is really not enough time. If you happen to have, as a lot of floks do, a 72 hour lag time, then you've only let the beer actualluy ferment on all that good yeast for 3 days. That's rarely enough time for the yeast to finish the beer let alone clean up the byproducts of fermentation that lead to off flavors.

That's why many of us opt for month long primaries, skipping secondary. But if you do choose to secondary, you should make sure that fermentation is complete, AND give it 2-3 more days on the yeast to clean up after itself.

I don't even recommend that folks who secondary take their FIRST hydro reading til day 12, and the second one on day 14. Especially with higher grav beers or beers with a lot of dark roast malt, you want to give them time with all the nice healthy yeast.

Next time don't be so quick to move your beer from primary to secondary, if at all. In this case leave your beer alone for a few more weeks. This isn't koolaid we're making, time really is your friend.

 

[TheMan]

What is the difference between aging in the secondary and aging in the bottles after priming?

I believe I read that bulk aging will give a more uniform product. Bottling earlier and letting them condition in the bottle can lead to inconsistency. However, I don't know how long you have to bulk condition it before you lose the benefits. Hopefully Revvy or someone can provide more information on this question.

 

[Wakadaka]

You rushed it, but I think you can get away with a bit of rushing, especially to get a pipeline going. The beer would condition the fastest and the best sitting on top of the primary yeast cake, but since that is already passed, your next best bet would be too leave it in secondary.

However, if you are trying to drink it asap I would just go ahead and bottle it. 3-4 weeks it might be carbed up, it might not, but even at that point it will still be green probably. They will age in bottles though.

Not saying that should be a standard operating procedure, I agree with leaving beers in primary for a month or so, and once you get a pipeline going its not near as hard as it seems to be. but while waiting to get that pipeline going you can rush a few things along if you wanted too, and know that you could be sacrificing slightly better beer a bit longer in the future

 

[dnslater]

Thanks all. I will definitely be more patient with current and future batches. My local supply store suggested a minimum of 14 days between brewing and bottling, so this is where I initially went wrong. I translated this to meaning a week in primary and a week in secondary, until I dug into this forum. As I said, when I did my last gravity reading, the beer tasted like a decent, flat stout. No real noticeable off flavors, not great depth of flavor though. What was the biggest thing that I sacrificed by transferring it too early to secondary? Is there enough yeast left in secondary to clean up after themself?

I also mentioned potentially adding cold pressed coffee when i bottle some of this. I suppose that this could help fill in the flavors a little and make up for the short period in the primary?

 

[Revvy]

Thanks all. I will definitely be more patient with current and future batches. My local supply store suggested a minimum of 14 days between brewing and bottling, so this is where I initially went wrong.

And what, open the bottles after 1 week?!?

God, my "normal" beers are a minimum of 8 weeks from grain til glass. Anything bigger will be 3 months minimum.

 

[onipar]

And what, open the bottles after 1 week?!?

God, my "normal" beers are a minimum of 8 weeks from grain til glass. Anything bigger will be 3 months minimum.

I don't think it's at all uncanny for us new brewers to be misled like this brewer has. Unfortunately, it seems like most of the information sources a new brewer is exposed to (the LHBS, recipe directions that come with a kit, and even some books and internet sources) advocate much too short of a time in primary and bottle conditioning.

Hell, based on my LHBS employee and recipe kit for my first brew, I thought I was supposed to primary for 1 week and bottle condition for 1 week. Even in the beginner section of The Complete Joy of Homebrewing Papazian has #7: Ferment for 8-10 days and #9: Age for 10 days.

It's wrong of course, and honestly, if it wasn't you, Revvy, and this forum, I'd probably never have known. It sucks, but when we start out, a lot of the information skews toward quick turn around. It's really no wonder new brewers come here and are totally confused when we say "No, at least 3 weeks in primary!"

We should probably release a series of informative commercials. "The more you know!" :cross:

 

[IXVolt]

A good reason why people's first brew is frequently terrible and a good portion of people that start brewing don't keep with it.

 

[Revvy]

A good reason why people's first brew is frequently terrible and a good portion of people that start brewing don't keep with it.

Exactly. And why extract brewing or even cooper's/mr beer kits get such a bad name, not because the ingredients are really all that inferior or different than any other kit, but the brewers follow the crappy instructions, rush their beer and blame the kits not the instructions.

The kit and kilo or basic kit manufacturers are banking on the fact that they only have a limited window of sales to an individual before he/she moves on to the next step of brewing, either trying recipes in books or online, or going all grain. So the bank on 2-3 sales per new brewer before they discover how to brew beer better.

Also as you ALL know, as you became more experienced, this is a hobby about patience, but in this quick trunover society retailers know that something that takes time, would be less popular than something with a quick turn around time...So they know that even though the beer would be better if they told the n00b to wait even a week further, they want to make this hobby as "pain free" as possible....

They're not technically lying, IF the yeast takes hold within a few hours and finishes in a week, you can bottle a lower to moderate gravity beer in 10 days, as Orfy's 10 for 10 milds proves. They just leave off the fact that waiting even a week more makes for better beer.

If you've noticed, it's mostly the kit and kilo, brew in a bag or mr beer type kits that say to do it quickly. The better kit manufacturers usually tell you to wait, as well as suggest to use a hydrometer. I've noticed the the Norther Brewer Catalog gives the most accurate range of their beers based on gravity and style. They will say, for example, "primary for 14 days, secondary 3-6 months, bottle condition another 6" for a higer grav beer.

 

[TheMan]

They're not technically lying, IF the yeast takes hold within a few hours and finishes in a week, you can bottle a lower to moderate gravity beer in 10 days, as Orfy's 10 for 10 milds proves. They just leave off the fact that waiting even a week more makes for better beer.

This is what I was going to say. They are really just giving you the minimum amount of time necessary to have a beer "ready". It will be drinkable and palatable to most new brewers at such a young state. However, eventually the brewer figures out that time helps all.

No one said the brewing instructions would tell you the best way to brew. Just A way to do it. Plus, I'm sure making a business out of it slightly influences their decision to tell you you can drink it in 2 weeks.

 

[dnslater]

I thought I would post an update. Since the consensus around here was that as an inpatient newbee, I should have left it in the primary more than 6 days.

8 days into the secondary I added about 8 ounces of strong cold-extracted Blue Mountain coffee which my father-in-law picked up on a recent rip to Jamaica. Bottled today (6 days primary, 10 days secondary) as I'm trying to get my pipeline going. Will definitely bottle condition for 4-6 weeks before drinking more than a couple. I drank the half bottle that I had left today after bottling and it tasted great. Almost wanted to crack open a full bottle of flat beer. Great coffee undertones without being overpowering. Hopefully the great flavor at bottling will lead to great flavor when carbonated.

 

[billf2112]

you rushed it, listen to Revvy and all will be ok

 

[Beezy]

I started with a stout too. I cracked my first 4 weeks after brewing and it was pretty good. A good idea is to maybe rather start off with a hefeweizen as you can bottle in like a week or so. You actually want that yeast in suspension. Ill probably do a hefe / dunkel / dampf any time my supply is running low so I have something to drink.

 

[TheMan]

I thought I would post an update. Since the consensus around here was that as an inpatient newbee, I should have left it in the primary more than 6 days.

8 days into the secondary I added about 8 ounces of strong cold-extracted Blue Mountain coffee which my father-in-law picked up on a recent rip to Jamaica. Bottled today (6 days primary, 10 days secondary) as I'm trying to get my pipeline going. Will definitely bottle condition for 4-6 weeks before drinking more than a couple. I drank the half bottle that I had left today after bottling and it tasted great. Almost wanted to crack open a full bottle of flat beer. Great coffee undertones without being overpowering. Hopefully the great flavor at bottling will lead to great flavor when carbonated.

Quite a few of the experienced brewers on this forum support bottling and not touching it for 4-6 weeks. They don't want you wasting beer needlessly because the beer is not ready till that 4-6 week mark. I actually like to tell the new brewers to taste one bottle per week after bottling. You'll get to see how the beer conditions and tastes better and better every week and in the future you just know not to touch it for about a month after bottling. Furthermore, you will know WHY you are letting it sit that month.

Just knowing, "Let it sit in the bottle because it's not done yet" doesn't really teach someone anything. So go ahead and pop one open in a week, it will still be flat (and green), and you will know that it's not done. After a month, when you are drinking it you will taste exactly why it's best to let it condition in the bottle like that. You'll learn by experience.

 

[Revvy]

Quite a few of the experienced brewers on this forum support bottling and not touching it for 4-6 weeks. They don't want you wasting beer needlessly because the beer is not ready till that 4-6 week mark. I actually like to tell the new brewers to taste one bottle per week after bottling. You'll get to see how the beer conditions and tastes better and better every week and in the future you just know not to touch it for about a month after bottling. Furthermore, you will know WHY you are letting it sit that month.

Just knowing, "Let it sit in the bottle because it's not done yet" doesn't really teach someone anything. So go ahead and pop one open in a week, it will still be flat (and green), and you will know that it's not done. After a month, when you are drinking it you will taste exactly why it's best to let it condition in the bottle like that. You'll learn by experience.

I just never had gleaned anything substantive from that. Despite the rationalization that many new brewer say is for 'educational purposes' I find there's very little to be gleaned tasting a beer at 1 week, and again at 2....that to me just means there 2 less beers that are actually tasting good and are ready at the end. I don't buy budweiser because I don't like to taste "bad" beer. So why would I drink my own beer when it was "bad" especially since I know it's going to be delicious a few weeks later.

It's a great rationalization, and I hear it every time I make my assertion. But the thing to remember is that since every beer is different that 5 day old Ipa you may have decided to crack open is not going to taste anything like that 5 day old brown ale you opened early in your next batch. They're two different animals. There are so many tiny variations in things like ambient temp at fermentation and carbonation, pitch count phases of the moon, that even if you brewed your same batch again and cracked a bottle at the exact same early time on the previous batch, the beer, if you could remember how it tasted, more than likely wouldn't taste the same at that phase....Heck even in the same batch if you had grabbed a different bottle it may seem carbed or tasting differently at that point.

A tiny difference in temps between bottles in storage can affect the yeasties, speed them up or slow them down. Like if you store them in a closet against a warm wall, the beers closest to the heat source may be a tad warmer than those further way, so thy may carb/condition at slightly different rates. I usually store a batch in 2 seperate locations in my loft 1 case in my bedroom which is a little warmer, and the other in the closet in the lving room, which being in a larger space is a tad cooler, at least according to the thermostat next to that closet. It can be 5-10 degrees warmer in my bedroom. So I usually start with that case at three weeks. Giving the other half a little more time. Each one is it's own little microcosm, and although generally the should come up at the same time, it's not an automatic switch, and they all pop on. They are all going to come to tempo when their time is right...not a minute before, and then at some point they all will be done.


So you're not, to me learning anything special from it. But It's your beer, but there's not gonna be anything right or wrong at that point, except that you're out a beer that 2-3 weeks later you're gonna post something like"Sigh, they always say that last beer of the batch is the best, now if only I hadn't "sampled for educational purposes" all those weeks back I could be having another on of these delicious beers."

*shrug*

 

[onipar]

So you're not, to me learning anything special from it.

I think he means that new brewers are learning patience (not that *all* new brewers are impatient) by doing this, not necessarily anything specific about the beer. Or maybe not. :cross:

 

[dnslater]

I think he means that new brewers are learning patience by doing this, not necessarily anything specific about the beer. Or maybe not. :cross:

Thanks all for the continued suggestions. I will likely taste one after two weeks as this is my first brew. I am very curious about how the flavors change during the aging/conditioning process. I realize that the experience will be different for future brews, but since this is my first batch, my curiousity will definitely get the better of me - especially since it tasted so good at bottling time. I already have two additional brews fermenting, so the pipeline is getting stronger, and it will be easier to be patient. I plan to leave these two on the yeast for 3-4 weeks before bottling thanks to the great advice repeated daily on this forum.

 

[onipar]

Thanks all for the continued suggestions. I will likely taste one after two weeks as this is my first brew. I am very curious about how the flavors change during the aging/conditioning process. I realize that the experience will be different for future brews, but since this is my first batch, my curiousity will definitely get the better of me - especially since it tasted so good at bottling time. I already have two additional brews fermenting, so the pipeline is getting stronger, and it will be easier to be patient. I plan to leave these two on the yeast for 3-4 weeks before bottling thanks to the great advice repeated daily on this forum.

This was exactly my experience. I was impatient and curious since it was my first batch, so i tasted it early. Now, with the beginnings of a pipeline in place and some experience, I have no desire to taste early again.

 

[Beezy]

I still have yet to taste the "green" flavor. I taste them from the primary too. Never had this green apple flavor from one of my beers. Also I tasted each of my beers a week after bottling and they were all perfectly carbed. And then tasting them a month + later and find that they haven't chanched that much except some further clearing. So what I learned from that bottle is there is no need to wait. Ill drink some when they are young and some at peak and some when they are old. Thats all a part of real ale for me. The thing about advice like that is its just advice. You do whatever you want in the end because its your beer.

 

[bigben24]

In my limited stout experience (1 so far), I've found it to take a really long time to mellow, and even get the slight cabonation we were looking for when it was planned. It has now been in the bottles about 12 weeks and has reached perfection (as far as what i hoped for). Unfortunately, I couldnt wait 12 weeks and only have a 22 and a 12 left.

 

[TheMan]

I just never had gleaned anything substantive from that. Despite the rationalization that many new brewer say is for 'educational purposes' I find there's very little to be gleaned tasting a beer at 1 week, and again at 2....that to me just means there 2 less beers that are actually tasting good and are ready at the end. I don't buy budweiser because I don't like to taste "bad" beer. So why would I drink my own beer when it was "bad" especially since I know it's going to be delicious a few weeks later.

I agree, they will be out a couple of beers when they are ready a month or so later. However, when we provide guidance to a new brewer I think it's better for them to learn why and taste why we tell them what we do. Just simply knowing that the beer is not ready for a month minimum doesn't teach them anything. And in the case that the beer is STILL not ready after a month in the bottle then they do not know.

If they taste a batch on a regular basis and note it's status they can accurately understand why that month conditioning time is given by us. And I know that every beer will be different, but that's why we give the standard one month advice.

I just feel that brewers should know what their product tastes like when it's not done. It's inevitable that they will have a green beer at some point (one that's not done 4-6 weeks later), and teaching themselves what it tastes like in the first place helps them to see this in the future.

Different strokes for different folks I suppose.

 

[Brewmoor]

And what, open the bottles after 1 week?!?

God, my "normal" beers are a minimum of 8 weeks from grain til glass. Anything bigger will be 3 months minimum.

Why 8 weeks? I am curious. As a commercial brewer. Most of our beers are being served anywhere from 14-20 days. I have also been taught not to leave beer on the yeast for more the 24 hours after FG. That it can cause off flavors if it sits on the yeast much longer. I understand the amount of yeast in our fermenters are much larger but I have to assume the theories transfer over to smaller batches.

I do feel some of our beers age out and taste better after sitting for another week or so but I have not tasted any differences in our beers that that have aged for more than that.

 

[rycov]

on a five gallon level there isn't as much pressure on the yeast so we don't get off flavors from the yeast as fast as you would in a large conical. so he's leaving the beer sitting on the yeast for a while, and i bet half of the eight weeks is for bottle conditioning. you can carb the beers faster if you force carb, but a lot of people here don't have that equipment.

 

[TheMan]

I still have yet to taste the "green" flavor. I taste them from the primary too. Never had this green apple flavor from one of my beers. Also I tasted each of my beers a week after bottling and they were all perfectly carbed. And then tasting them a month + later and find that they haven't chanched that much except some further clearing. So what I learned from that bottle is there is no need to wait. Ill drink some when they are young and some at peak and some when they are old. Thats all a part of real ale for me. The thing about advice like that is its just advice. You do whatever you want in the end because its your beer.

No offense to you, Beezy, but you kind of helped prove my point. I highly doubt that your beer was carbed at 1 week in the bottle. There is a difference between a beer that pours with head (Which can happen before even a week in the bottle), and a beer with disolved C02.

This is something that a brewer needs to see and taste to know. I didn't understand this right away until I opened early bottles and later bottles and could see it. So now after a month or so when I pop a bottle I know whether it's ready or not.

And for the record, conditioning includes more than carbonating a beer.

 

[Beezy]

No offense to you, Beezy, but you kind of helped prove my point. I highly doubt that your beer was carbed at 1 week in the bottle. There is a difference between a beer that pours with head (Which can happen before even a week in the bottle), and a beer with disolved C02.

This is something that a brewer needs to see and taste to know. I didn't understand this right away until I opened early bottles and later bottles and could see it. So now after a month or so when I pop a bottle I know whether it's ready or not.

And for the record, conditioning includes more than carbonating a beer.

You are probably right that they weren't fully carbed but it wasn't like I had a bunch of head and then flat beer underneath. I did get a lot of head but I had carbonation in the beer for the duration of drinking it. I had a commercial beer last week that went flat half way through, they weren't like that. Now 4 weeks later I have less head and it's fully carbed. The early beers were still enjoyable and would and will do it again.