DFH Score!

[doctorRobert]

I know that you're in New York, that's why I responded; it is definitely criminal--it's charged as in New York. It's charged as 155.05.2(d), Larceny by False Promise.

It's penalized as Petit Larceny, which is a class A misdemeanor (punishable by up to 1 year in prison, though as a non-violent offense the likely sentence is much lower).

Yelling back and forth isn't going to resolve things; like I said, feel free to go to the local police station or consult a lawyer if you want a real answer.

Neither of you can be correct without having the actual signed contract for the keg deposit. You dont know what it says. They can vary by distributor and by state. What if it says they if the keg is not returned in exchange you forfeit the deposit to settle all debts. What if it doesnt.

You dont know, so neither of you can apply the law.

So shut up and go brew some beer or something.

 

[Airborneguy]

Yelling back and forth isn't going to resolve things; like I said, feel free to go to the local police station or consult a lawyer if you want a real answer.

I think you need to re-read a few of my posts...

EDIT:

http://www.nycourts.gov/cji/2-PenalLaw/155/AC.155.Theories.pdf

This PDF is from the NYS Court System. Rather than being a straight reading of the penal law section, it goes further and explains how to put each section into practice. If you notice, "intent" is mentioned in various forms throughout the section covering Larceny by False Promise. Due to the wording of that section, no report would ever be taken for keeping a keg which had been legally acquired, as I stated. Unless someone was found to be running some decent-sized operation where they forfeited the deposit on kegs to make keggles then re-sell them, this section would never be applied. As previously stated, I know this because I get paid to make sure criminal reports are properly written, processed and filed.

You can choose to believe this or not, but you're flat wrong, period.

The only thing I will concede, although no one has mentioned it, is that there may be a civil issue that the breweries could take up in civil court against someone who does this. I don't deal with civil law though, so I'm not sure. Civil proceedings are completely separate from criminal proceedings.

 

[Airborneguy]

You dont know, so neither of you can apply the law.

The law wouldn't be affected by a contract, unless the law already exists. If there is no theft section in the penal law covering this, a contract cannot create the crime, follow me?

If there was a theft section covering this, then it would be a crime whether or not the contract covered it.

So again, criminality is not affected by a contract, other than a contract which releases one from criminal punishment in cases where a complainant is required. An example would be me giving a demolition company permission to knock down my garage, which would obviously be criminal if they didn't have permission.

 

[JRems]

The old form I had from the beer dist. Says " beer keg purchaser form". It has no mention of buying it's contents only, it only stipulates you are purchasing the "keg"
By returning said keg you can get a refund of deposit. Seems like you are purchasing the keg, I'm no lawyer but i don't think you could get in trouble with a receipt that States you purchased the keg( not it's contents only)

 

[jmancuso]

I work at a brewpub. One day we received a call from a pawn shop because someone was tring to pawn one of our kegs. We told them we don't sell our kegs and it was our property. He was arrested and fined and we received the keg back.

 

[JRems]

Except you are in Utah which is illegal to even posess a keg( except retailers and wholesalers)

 

[jmancuso]

It's not illegal to posses a keg. It's illegal to purchase a keg with alcohol in it. You can receive a keg as a donation but can't pay for it. He was charged with the theft of the keg not possessing it.

 

[Airborneguy]

Exactly why I made sure to say all of my posts only applied to NY. Each state has its own criminal laws.

 

[Airborneguy]

For anyone who still cares...

I feel like an idiot even bothering to post this, but I'm at work now (one of those police "stations" SumnerH mentioned) with all my resources right in front of me and finished with my responsibilities for the night, so...

From the NYS Penal Law, Larceny (Sec 155.00), definition of "Owner":

In the absence of a specific agreement to the contrary, a person in lawful possession of property shall be deemed to have a right of possession superior to that of a person having only a security interest pursuant to a conditional sale contract or other security agreement.

This definition of ownership applies in regards to a keg procurement. The reason this definition applies is because the initial transfer of ownership in this situation is voluntary from the brewery/distributor, to the person taking possession of the keg. Unless a contract is signed which states that the keg must be returned (independant of any deposit requirements), that person taking possession of the keg is deemed to have superior rights to ownership under NYS Criminal Law at that point.

The section mentioned by SumnerH (Larceny by False Promise), applies to con-artist situations, and situations where an agreement is made to provide a service, payment is made, and the service provider fails to provide the service as agreed upon. As a side note, it is not a charge, it is part of the definition of larceny. One cannot be charged with Larceny by False Promise, they will be charged with Grand Larceny or Petit Larceny, by false promise.

Furthermore, regarding that section:

In any prosecution for larceny based upon a false promise, the defendant's intention or belief that the promise would not be performed MAY NOT be established by or inferred from the fact alone that such promise was not performed.

In other words, when someone is charged in this manner, the DA has to be able to prove the person's intent was to steal the property when entering into the agreement, beyond the mere fact that they didn't return the property/perform the service, which is nearly impossible.

BUT, three people in this office right now, all whose jobs are to classify crime reports, agree that this section does not apply to the type of property transfer we are all discussing.

SO, in the State of NY, 100-MILLION%, whether SumnerH wants to realize it or not, unless you sign a contract that specifically mentions returning the keg is required (not merely to get your deposit back, but absolutely required), it is NOT in anyway a chargeable offense (aka, crime), to keep a legally aquired keg.

PERIOD.

 

[doctorRobert]

For anyone who still cares...

I feel like an idiot even bothering to post this, but I'm at work now (one of those police "stations" SumnerH mentioned) with all my resources right in front of me and finished with my responsibilities for the night, so...

From the NYS Penal Law, Larceny (Sec 155.00), definition of "Owner":

This definition of ownership applies in regards to a keg procurement. The reason this definition applies is because the initial transfer of ownership in this situation is voluntary from the brewery/distributor, to the person taking possession of the keg. Unless a contract is signed which states that the keg must be returned (independant of any deposit requirements), that person taking possession of the keg is deemed to have superior rights to ownership under NYS Criminal Law at that point.

The section mentioned by SumnerH (Larceny by False Promise), applies to con-artist situations, and situations where an agreement is made to provide a service, payment is made, and the service provider fails to provide the service as agreed upon. As a side note, it is not a charge, it is part of the definition of larceny. One cannot be charged with Larceny by False Promise, they will be charged with Grand Larceny or Petit Larceny, by false promise.

Furthermore, regarding that section:

In other words, when someone is charged in this manner, the DA has to be able to prove the person's intent was to steal the property when entering into the agreement, beyond the mere fact that they didn't return the property/perform the service, which is nearly impossible.

BUT, three people in this office right now, all whose jobs are to classify crime reports, agree that this section does not apply to the type of property transfer we are all discussing.

SO, in the State of NY, 100-MILLION%, whether SumnerH wants to realize it or not, unless you sign a contract that specifically mentions returning the keg is required (not merely to get your deposit back, but absolutely required), it is NOT in anyway a chargeable offense (aka, crime), to keep a legally aquired keg.

PERIOD.

All of this irrelevant because it all depends on how the contract was worded, regardless of which state you're in or what the laws are. A contract could be written to satisfy either side of this pissing contest.


PERIOD.

What makes you the lawyers arent putting in the language to say returning of the keg is required? Why would you not include that?

 

[doctorRobert]

Yeah, no crap, that's why I wrote this:

AND this:

SO, are you just dumb or did you not read my post?

I read your post, twice, and still don't understand why you're citing a rule book when its irrelevant when everything depends on the wording in the contract.

Did you not read my post when I wrote that same exact thing of page 2 of this thread? You should have, would have saved you a lot of time

 

[Airborneguy]

As to what you added afterwards:

What makes you the lawyers arent putting in the language to say returning of the keg is required? Why would you not include that?

I am not really sure what you are saying here (horrible grammar), but I'm assuming that you are asking me why lawyers don't add language to require the return of the keg. If this is what you are asking, I have no clue why not, and it really isn't relevent to what I am trying to prove here.

If you don't what to read what I wrote (which you didn't based on your response and my retort), that's your own decision. The info is all there; for once you are involved in an "internet argument" which actually included actual proof.

Remember when SumnerH told me to go to a police "station" and ask? Well, I just waited until I had to go to work and did just that, considering I incidentally work there

 

[doctorRobert]

As to what you added afterwards:

I am not really sure what you are saying here (horrible grammar), but I'm assuming that you are asking me why lawyers don't add language to require the return of the keg. If this is what you are asking, I have no clue why not, and it really isn't relevent to what I am trying to prove here.

If you don't what to read what I wrote (which you didn't based on your response and my retort), that's your own decision. The info is all there; for once you are involved in an "internet argument" which actually included actual proof.

Remember when SumnerH told me to go to a police "station" and ask? Well, I just waited until I had to go to work and did just that, considering I incidentally work there

You don't make any sense.

You're arguing whether or not a keg needs to be returned, which is entirely based on the contract signed between the two parties. And you're arguing this without said contract.

Somebody post a standard keg deposit contract and in there you'll find the answer it. And I would guess there is language that'll state ownership of the keg is never forfeited in exchange for the deposit.

You're not gonna find the answer at a police station.

 

[doctorRobert]

You were just given the actual NYS laws regarding theft, all prefaced by the fact that a contract could possibly make this situation a theft, and you still don't understand...

I knew it was pointless for me to look into all of that.

Well at least for myself the case is settled...

When did I say this couldn't be theft? I'm saying it most likely is!

 

[BrewFrisco]

Ahahahhah. You guys are still arguing this? In the meanwhile, I have since cut my hole and put the serious mirror finish on it. Looks sharp...now I need one of those big witches brew sticks! Cannot wait to brew in this beast.

Oh...as it turns out, the DFH beer completely filled one of my corny's...!! 5 gallons...guess my buddy KO'ed at least 10 gallons.

Happy Brewing Go Packers!

 

[Airborneguy]

Ahahahhah. You guys are still arguing this?

Hey! I'm defending you!

And yes, GO PACK!! I'm wearing my hat right now.

 

[LakewoodBrew]

Dude... contract or no, we all know that Sam wanted that keg back. Anyway, you can call a local brewery and ask for an NFS (non-functioning shell) keg shell, they usually have a few waiting for the bone yard. Most are more than willing to give it up for the scrap value. All of my kegs are legally, ethically and appropriately acquired through such means.

 

[doctorRobert]

Dude... contract or no, we all know that Sam wanted that keg back. Anyway, you can call a local brewery and ask for an NFS (non-functioning shell) keg shell, they usually have a few waiting for the bone yard. Most are more than willing to give it up for the scrap value. All of my kegs are legally, ethically and appropriately acquired through such means.

Just because he wants it back. Doesn't necessarily mean its still legally his. Yes the contract does mean something, and only that document could settle this.

 

[LakewoodBrew]

Splitting hairs... remind me not to loan you any tools, I definitely won't be letting you borrow a sanke fermenter.

 

[LakewoodBrew]

Ethics and legality are rarely the same thing. Legality only attempts to emulate ethics.

 

[mikebowman]

by the reasoning of some people in this thread, one shouldn't save up bottles to brew with. when you buy a keg of beer you pay a deposit, which is refunded upon return of the keg. when you buy a six-pack of beer, you pay a deposit (in Ontario its 10 cents per bottle), which is refunded when you return the bottle to the beer store.

now how many of you here have bought beer and kept the bottles to fill with your own beer? hell, how many of us have bought a six pack, and just put the bottles in the recycling, rather than bothering to return them for deposit? i'd venture a guess to say that a good number of you who are vilifying the OP for "stealing" a keg have no scruples over doing the same with bottles. the only difference here is that a keg is worth significantly more than a bottle.

 

[LakewoodBrew]

Try reading up on what a bottle deposit actually is.

Bottle deposits are just State recycling incentive and taxation programs. It has nothing to do with the actual brewer/bottler.

Sorry, but bottles are factored into product cost as packaging (like the carrier and caps) and are not returned to the bottling facility when returned for deposit.

Nice try.

 

[doctorRobert]

Try reading up on what a bottle deposit actually is.

Bottle deposits are just State recycling incentive and taxation programs. It has nothing to do with the actual brewer/bottler.

Sorry, but bottles are factored into product cost as packaging (like the carrier and caps) and are not returned to the bottling facility when returned for deposit.

Nice try.

In the US. In canada and europe I believe they actually reuse the bottle and return it to the brewer.

 

[LakewoodBrew]

Maybe, I admittedly have no experience with the Canadian and European distribution systems. Seems like a lot of trouble for any large distribution network and not worth the cost (soda-lime glass is cheap)

 

[doctorRobert]

Maybe, I admittedly have no experience with the Canadian and European distribution systems. Seems like a lot of trouble for any large distribution network and not worth the cost (soda-lime glass is cheap)

Its not cheaper to wash and reuse than melt and remake?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_recycling?wasRedirected=true

Specifically states beer bottles in canada.

 

[FishH2o]

Ethics and legality are rarely the same thing. Legality only attempts to emulate ethics.

You are 100% correct! Sure we can find away in any contract to make what we did at that moment good for us and you know what if you can sleep at night thats all that matters. If they feel like they did nothing wrong then so be it. It's like taking the trailer out of trailer park trash... You can buy them make up, buy them tits, buy the nice clothes but they will always relate to a miller lite and a non filter.

This debate is something that is pointless.... Someone will always do it and someone will always defend them. Just be glad they are note dating you daughter.

 

[LakewoodBrew]

If you are moving thousands of bottles around through hundreds of distributors seems like it would cost a fortune to put in place the return network... I think that is the economics behind the US distribution model. Can you imagine taking your used bottles back to the grocery store or gas station you picked up that case of high life at?

Again, no argument on any other markets. If the brewery is looking to get their bottles back, they should get them back. It's just not an expectation where I live (we don't have the networks in place to get them back anyway), so I don't see the ethical correlation.

 

[LakewoodBrew]

You are 100% correct! Sure we can find away in any contract to make what we did at that moment good for us and you know what if you can sleep at night thats all that matters. If they feel like they did nothing wrong then so be it. It's like taking the trailer out of trailer park trash... You can buy them make up, buy them tits, buy the nice clothes but they will always relate to a miller lite and a non filter.

This debate is something that is pointless.... Someone will always do it and someone will always defend them. Just be glad they are note dating you daughter.

Amen.

 

[tjp68]

What is up with all the moral authority? Get over it. I think that the first documentary I ever saw about DFH I saw Sam brewing on a 3 keg system. I wonder, did he acquire his first kegs legit?

Yes, pretty sure he used SABCO. At least according to their website.

As for moral authority, there is none. Everyone has to make their own decisions, but I try to avoid knowingly breaking the law as I go through life.

If I want a used keg, there are ethical ways to get one. If they are too expensive, I do without. I don't steal one and claim a score.

 

[McKBrew]

Ahh, I haven't been around in awhile, but some things never change.

Personally I think we all violate some laws but probably shouldn't advertise it on the internet. Enjoy the beer, what you do with the keg afterward is something we don't need to know.

It's wrong, you know it. (Not saying I wouldn't do it)). But trying to justify it by saying it's OK to take from one brewery but not another....

I am a bit buzzed now, so probably not making much sense.