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In the US. In canada and europe I believe they actually reuse the bottle and return it to the brewer.

This is true, but bottle deposits are still a provincial incentive for recycling (to keep them out of landfills, etc) and all the infrastructure, processing, sanitizing, sorting, etc, actually costs more than producing new bottles. Like most post-consumer recycling here in Canada, the costs are shouldered in part by tax dollars, because there is no financial incentive to recycling glass, and so private companies wouldn't be reusing bottles because they don't generally feel that environmental and other concerns are their financial responsibility.

Ultimately, the breweries don't care whether or not they get their bottles back. For many of them, they'd actually rather NOT because it actually costs them more, but they're mandated to do so. The cost of metals, on the other hand, are high enough that metal is really the only material where the financial incentive alone is enough for private enterprise to be involved. There is a genuine financial loss to a brewery every time a keg is stolen. Heck, people are even stealing electrical wiring, metal piping, etc. I've seen instances of people having their exhaust pipes sawn off and stolen. There's a reason you'll never see a thief smash a car window and run off with the pieces of glass :lol: There's a reason businesses dealing in scrap metal can operate privately and profitably, but recycling depots dealing with glass, paper, etc, cannot operate without government (and/or possibly charitable) funds.

So no, keeping bottles is not the same thing as keeping a keg. Whether or not it's part of the criminal code in any particular neck of the woods, it's impossible to argue that the brewery is not losing money every time one of their kegs isn't returned. They are the victim of such an action, and the deposit exists because it is enough for most people to return them. If they wouldn't lose so many sales by charging $150+ deposits (they'd certainly lose more than they're losing right now in unreturned kegs), they would do it in an instant. Ultimately though, the keg deposit exists because it would hurt them even more NOT to have one. Bottle deposits, on the other hand, exist not in the breweries' interests, but for the interests of society - to minimize landfill space used, and even to keep the streets and other public spaces from being littered with broken glass, among other things. In order to achieve this, the government mandates bottle deposits in order to keep every bottle made to be reused or recycled as much as possible - breweries don't have a choice, and those that even care at all would benefit from NOT having to go through the process of reusing bottles. So even in Canada, when you keep bottles you don't just do the breweries a favor (or at worst make no difference to their bottom line), but you also continue adhering to the entire purpose of the bottle deposits in the first place, by keeping them in use, off the streets and out of landfills. So it can actually be argued that everybody wins (and without question, nobody loses) when you repurpose bottles for your own brews. Anybody thinking you can say the same for kegs is just delusional.
 
Somewhere in all of this I kept thinking "how much does it cost to brew that keg of beer, and how much are they charging"

at some point I think they get their money back on the keg...i wonder if there is a tax write-off that they dont want to mention?

Tim
 
Somewhere in all of this I kept thinking "how much does it cost to brew that keg of beer, and how much are they charging"


Tim

So because it's a business and they are trying to make a profit they deserve to have their property stolen? Do you just want to keep their keg so they make less of a profit off of you?
 
Well, I never stated a position, just that it was something that I was thinking as I read the thread.

I will thank you in advance for not making anymore post that my lead other to think that I may or may not support what the Op is doing....

Tim
 
Ahh, I haven't been around in awhile, but some things never change.

Personally I think we all violate some laws but probably shouldn't advertise it on the internet. Enjoy the beer, what you do with the keg afterward is something we don't need to know.

It's wrong, you know it. (Not saying I wouldn't do it)). But trying to justify it by saying it's OK to take from one brewery but not another....

I am a bit buzzed now, so probably not making much sense.

there it is... makes perfect sense.
 
For one, i dont speek for everyone but personally i wouldnt drink an entire keg of 90 min in a month. So the store telly u that if u dont return it within that time is a little rediculous. Having said that. Beer foe beer the keg most of the time isnt less expensive to get then buying the same amount of bottles of the same beer. This is my issue. Cost to the brewer is soooooo much less considering i have never gotten a keg that looked like it was brand new or i was the first one to get beer out of it. So if they lower the price then ill feel a little worse for peoplethat dont bring them back. But i wouldnt worry about the brewer not making any money. AND so everyone on here that is against taking them i hoping u have NEVER illegally downloaded a song u like too. Theres more people that return kegs then take them.
Just my two cents.
 
FishH2o said:
You are 100% correct! Sure we can find away in any contract to make what we did at that moment good for us and you know what if you can sleep at night thats all that matters. If they feel like they did nothing wrong then so be it. It's like taking the trailer out of trailer park trash... You can buy them make up, buy them tits, buy the nice clothes but they will always relate to a miller lite and a non filter.

This debate is something that is pointless.... Someone will always do it and someone will always defend them. Just be glad they are note dating you daughter.

On one hand you can use morals to defend breaking laws or contracts. Or you can use laws to break morals. Pick your battles.

And honestly, the brewing industry cries foul with these lost kegs. But if it is a serious problem they should fix it. Why would the deposit not be the replacement value of the keg? The current honor system doesn't work.

I've also never stolen a keg, can I date your daughter now? Pics please.
 
And honestly, the brewing industry cries foul with these lost kegs. But if it is a serious problem they should fix it. Why would the deposit not be the replacement value of the keg? The current honor system doesn't work.

If a keg cost the Brewery $150.00, and they then charged that as a deposit + the cost of the beer + the tap rental and so on, I know for sure that I would not be buying kegs for my functions...even if I plan on returning everything, the upfront cost is not worth it.

Tim
 
MX1 said:
If a keg cost the Brewery $150.00, and they then charged that as a deposit + the cost of the beer + the tap rental and so on, I know for sure that I would not be buying kegs for my functions...even if I plan on returning everything, the upfront cost is not worth it.

Tim

Its not an expensive if you get it back. But there should be a happy medium price for a deposit. Like an insurance premium built into the cost of the keg. I'm sure this is how it is in practice. I would be surprised if they aren't factoring in the 3 percent of unreturned kegs in the cost of a keg sale. They're charging everyone a few extra bucks knowing they're might be a sunk expense for the lost kegs.
 
All, I know is that I am the legal owner of my 2 kegs. The country of Belgium makes it so that distributors must track and record who the sell them too. It was fairly easy and straight forward, but you do have to have a Belgium National ID card to purchase them. It was as easy as walking into my local wholesale Bev mart and asking if they could sell me 2 kegs, they asked if I wanted 30L or 50L, there was no price difference so I picked up 2 50L kegs and went home...all for about 80 USD.....

I have never brewed beer in the States, and will not until 2014, but I gather from reading that it may not be that simple in the US.

Tim
 
In all actuality - I did not even think or even consider that what I did was wrong or immoral...so in terms of sleeping at night...well, I have lost zero sleep. I still do not consider it wrong.

I called a few local bottle shops and asked them about the keg deposit. All three places that I called were like...huh.? If you don't return the keg, we keep the deposit - it is that simple - you are out your $12 bucks. Actually...one just laughed and was like...OK...that is a weird question.

So I have to ask myself who did I screw? Sam?? How so? If the bottle shop does not keep tabs on who brings back what how is that Sam's fault that someone wants a keg of his fine beer and takes over a year to finish it? Why would Sam be penalized.. furthermore, how would they know to penalize him?

If anyone, I would think it is the distributor to keep tabs on (i delivered company X - X number of kegs) next month when I return, I will collect X number of kegs to return to the brewers...

Trust me - the breweries are not the ones setting the deposit cost for the individual stores... If anyone looses out - it is the individual bottle shop. If they don't want to collect a simple phone number to inquire about the shell after a per-determined period of time, then shame on them. If they don't want to ask for more deposit cash in fear of sales loss - then shame on them. Am I taking advantage of the system - that is where the debate needs to be. It is clear to me that I have not broken any laws.
 
1st, I don't care how you got your keg, it is just that simple....honestly, I dont, not an issue of any kind (moral or legal) for me.

but, as far as I know, someone bought that keg new, probably the brewer. Someone has to buy a keg to replace that one you got, probably the brewer...now somewhere mixed in is the shop that the beer was purchased from and the person that purchased the beer..I an not sure, but i would guess, that between the shop and the customer there have been deposits made on said keg, now if they are not enough to cover the cost of a new keg, someone has to come up with the difference, probably the brewer....

It is a shame that it is not as simple as the lesson my Dad tought me about lending stuff that is not yours to lend.

"Son, I need my grinder back"
"Well, Dad I loaned it to Mr X, and he lost it somehow"
"Well, then I guess we are off for you to buy me a new one"
"but, Dad, I didnt lose it, Mr X did"
Well, I dont know who the F@$K Mr X is, but I know who is replacing my grinder, grab your wallet, your gonna need it"

I will give you 3 guesses who paid me back for that Grinder in the end....

Tim
 
MX1 - I did pay for keg (grinder) - I paid the asked deposit and lost the keg...?

Where are you going with this?
 
That story was more to point out the shortfall of the situation at the Brewer / distributor level, not pointed at you.

In short, if Brewers made distributors more accountable, then distributors would make customers more accountable, and Brewers would not have to incur the bulk of the cost to replace the keg.

in my story My Dad was the Brewer, I was the distributor, and Mr X was the customer...I was made accountable, so in the end, so was Mr X.

But like I said, I have no issue what so ever, have Keg will travel, rock on Playa!!

Tim
 
doctorRobert said:
On one hand you can use morals to defend breaking laws or contracts. Or you can use laws to break morals. Pick your battles.

And honestly, the brewing industry cries foul with these lost kegs. But if it is a serious problem they should fix it. Why would the deposit not be the replacement value of the keg? The current honor system doesn't work.

I've also never stolen a keg, can I date your daughter now? Pics please.



That's awesome! Sorry she's only 13 so not just yet :)

Thanks,
FishH2o
 
I work at a brewpub. One day we received a call from a pawn shop because someone was tring to pawn one of our kegs. We told them we don't sell our kegs and it was our property. He was arrested and fined and we received the keg back.

I doubt this seriously.

Said brewpub?

I bet you don't respond to this with any legitimate info.
 
Technically it isn't even a crime until some files a complaint. The police aren't going to come looking for "stollen keggles" unless someone files a police report. BUT we all pay a higher price for beer to offset the overhead of all the lost kegs, which means we need to keep brewing our own beer to avoid those higher costs... It's a vicious cycle.
 
Well it seems to me that breweries aren't taking this seriously. Sam himself is not staying up late at night worrying about those 5% of missing kegs. DFH is a corporation: it is up to the brewery and the destributer/retailer to set a proper deposit rental as well as cost for beer. DFH is seeing profits, so they obviously are factoring all of this in their accounting. If breweries were really concerned about keg theft for scrap metal, they would at least raise deposit prices. I don't know of too many people intentionally stealing a keg for scrap metal, but I do know of people selling a keg on CL because their deposit expired. Furthermore, when I inquired about buying unusable kegs from my local brewery, the rep was kind enough to ask around, but then said "it's company policy not to release any kegs [no matter what condition] to the public". When I asked my local breverage store about maybe buying any kegs that weren't fit for distribution anymore: they gave me an odd look...then said "why don't you just buy a keg of beer and then lose the deposit". At that store, DFH 90 costs $225 plus $50 deposit (I personally wouldn't buy that, because I wouldn't be able to stand drinking that much DFH!). The cheapest keg I could buy is Miller High Life for $59. Seeing as I would just be buying that for the keg and dumping the beer, I would have spent at least $110 for a used keg. In that case, it would make more sense to just buy a new keg for $130. Procuring a keg from one of your deposits (or someone else's) is still an insignificant loss to the distributer/brewer, as kegs do go through so many cycles of use for them. They are still in business because they are savvy enough to know what to set deposit prices for. If they saw whatever percentage of homebrewers wanting to "score" a keg to convert as a threat/market segment: then they would allow kegs to be returned at any time, as well as a willingness to sell unusable ones to the public.
 
Yes, pretty sure he used SABCO. At least according to their website.

As for moral authority, there is none. Everyone has to make their own decisions, but I try to avoid knowingly breaking the law as I go through life.

If I want a used keg, there are ethical ways to get one. If they are too expensive, I do without. I don't steal one and claim a score.

The first system at the brewpub in Rehoboth was a SABCO system, but the system used as a homebrewer was not a SABCO, they have his first keg at the brewery and it is beat up. Either he got it legally as non-functioning kegs or he took the same route as some people here.
 
If a keg cost the Brewery $150.00, and they then charged that as a deposit + the cost of the beer + the tap rental and so on, I know for sure that I would not be buying kegs for my functions...even if I plan on returning everything, the upfront cost is not worth it.

Tim

These days it is not uncommon for everyone to have a credit card, for a simple fix they should record your information when you purchase the keg and if you do not return the keg within X days your credit card gets charged with a $150 deposit. That way you are not paying an up-front fee.
 
These days it is not uncommon for everyone to have a credit card, for a simple fix they should record your information when you purchase the keg and if you do not return the keg within X days your credit card gets charged with a $150 deposit. That way you are not paying an up-front fee.

+1 to this! This would be so simple that if breweries/distributors cared even a little about the 5% "lost" kegs, they would implement this easily.
 
That wouldn't work so well. What about people whose cards are soon to expire? Who decide to cancel their card in the meantime, or even maxed it out? Just the first one alone is quite a significant amount of people.
 

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