Delayed extract addition purpose?

[paanderson86]

My Extra Pale Ale kit from Northern Brewer says to add 3lb of the LME at 60 and 3lb at 15.... What difference does that make?

 

[Yooper]

My Extra Pale Ale kit from Northern Brewer says to add 3lb of the LME at 60 and 3lb at 15.... What difference does that make?

LME is a sugar-rich concentrate (as is the dry extract), and cooking it for long periods of time causes reactions like caramelization. By adding the bulk of the extract at the end of the boil, those reactions are reduced. The end result will be a lighter colored, less "cooked extract" tasting beer.

I would add the final 3 pounds at flame out, instead of boiling it for 15 minutes because it will stop your boil and adding it when you turn off the heat is still plenty hot enough to pasteurize the extract.

 

[cshamilton]

Not a huge difference, but it is supposed to keep the wort from getting darker than it is supposed to and it *may* give better hop utilization.

 

[paanderson86]

I would add the final 3 pounds at flame out, instead of boiling it for 15 minutes because it will stop your boil and adding it when you turn off the heat is still plenty hot enough to pasteurize the extract.

Good point. Thank you.

 

[Joewalla88]

I've noticed that when I use extract, and put the recipe in the recipe builder on brewers friend, adding different amounts of extract at the beginning, and end seems to have a effect on hop utilization. So, that might be another thing to look at.

 

[paanderson86]

What type of effect?

 

[Joewalla88]

Based on what I've found in the recipe builder, if you use less extract at the beginning, and throw the rest in at the end, you end up with more IBUs, than if you put it all in at once.

 

[FirstAidBrewing]

Based on what I've found in the recipe builder, if you use less extract at the beginning, and throw the rest in at the end, you end up with more IBUs, than if you put it all in at once.

Yes because there is less sugar concentration. The more sugar you have the more difficult it is for hop oils to diffuse into the wort.

However another important reason for the late addition is to prevent maillard reactions that produce a wort that is darker than desired when working with extracts.

 

[Joewalla88]

Yeah, I was just trying to point out that carmelization and color wasn't the only thing to think about. Depending on how you split up the additions, it can really change the IBUs, so I just wanted the OP to be aware of that.

 

[cshamilton]

Just FYI the darkening is not generally due to caramelization - it doesn't get hot enough (unless you don't mix well and scorch the extract). It's the Maillard reaction.

 

[Joewalla88]

Good point.

 

[Yooper]

Yeah, I was just trying to point out that carmelization and color wasn't the only thing to think about. Depending on how you split up the additions, it can really change the IBUs, so I just wanted the OP to be aware of that.

well, not really. When those calculators came out, they all did use boil gravity as part of the formula for isomerization of hops oils.

However, in the last few years it's been found that boil gravity has very little to do with the IBUs, and the rate of isomerization. So it's really not a concern at all.

 

[Joewalla88]

well, not really. When those calculators came out, they all did use boil gravity as part of the formula for isomerization of hops oils.

However, in the last few years it's been found that boil gravity has very little to do with the IBUs, and the rate of isomerization. So it's really not a concern at all.

So I've been living a lie!!!?? I feel like such a fool! I swear, you learn something new everyday. Especially on HBT. I wonder why that haven't fixed that on brewers friend. I normally do all grain, but when ever I've done extract I've used that to make adjustments to when I add stuff and how much I add. That's kinda funny. Good to know though, thanks.

 

[Yooper]

So I've been living a lie!!!?? I feel like such a fool! I swear, you learn something new everyday. Especially on HBT. I wonder why that haven't fixed that on brewers friend. I normally do all grain, but when ever I've done extract I've used that to make adjustments to when I add stuff and how much I add. That's kinda funny. Good to know though, thanks.

It's not a lie, exactly. Since it's been found that IBUs are mostly independent of wort gravity, the calculators haven't changed because really it's still the best we have to guestimate the probable IBUs in the beer. It's still at best an estimate anyway, and the only way to prove the actual IBUs is by lab testing.

One thing that IS a big contributor to IBUs (or the lack of) in extract brewing is the partial boil. The reason is actually pretty simple. The most IBUs you can ever get into any wort is about 100 IBUs, probably less from the literature (more like 80-90) but definitely not any more than that before the hops oils saturate the wort and can't isomerize futher.

But let's say you could get 100 IBUs in a batch you're boiling and you're making an IPA. That's fine. But if you're doing a partial boil like many extract brewers do, that can be an issue. Because, you have 2.5 gallons of 100 IBU wort and add 2.5 gallons of 0 IBU water to it. That means that your IPA will have 50 IBUs in it, no matter how many hops you put in it. Since it's more likely that the max is about 80 IBUs, you can see why so many extract brewers may complain of a "sweet" beer instead of a highly bitter one. It's not due to boil gravity, though- it's due to the dilution.

The fix for that is to boil as much as you possibly can, and utilize less top off water.

For many beer styles, this is perfectly fine so I'm not suggesting that partial boils shouldn't be done. It's just that a very highly bittered beer is more difficult with these limitations. Unless you're making an IPA or a barleywine, partial boils are generally pretty effective.

 

[helibrewer]

Here is a very detailed analysis of the relationship between temperature and isomerization. Interestingly it finds fairly high loss of alpha-acids in the kettle trub.

Oregon Master's Thesis

 

[cloudybrewer]

I would add the final 3 pounds at flame out, instead of boiling it for 15 minutes because it will stop your boil and adding it when you turn off the heat is still plenty hot enough to pasteurize the extract.

Hello Yooper, I was just wondering if adding DME at flameout, not boiling it, and not getting hot break after its addition would create any problems due to the proteins not coagulating and falling out? Was the hot break accomplished by the manufacturer of the DME? Thanks for any help.

 

[Yooper]

Hello Yooper, I was just wondering if adding DME at flameout, not boiling it, and not getting hot break after its addition would create any problems due to the proteins not coagulating and falling out? Was the hot break accomplished by the manufacturer of the DME? Thanks for any help.

It should have been done during the manufacturing process. I never get hot break with extract, but do get cold break.

 

[cloudybrewer]

It should have been done during the manufacturing process. I never get hot break with extract, but do get cold break.

Wow, impressive response time! When the wort foams up and tries to boil over 2 minutes after an addition of DME, isn't that the hot break? I'm confused.

 

[Yooper]

Wow, impressive response time! When the wort foams up and tries to boil over 2 minutes after an addition of DME, isn't that the hot break? I'm confused.

Oh, yes, it sounds like it good be! Or, it could be nucleation points from hundreds of billions of sugar molecules added.

When you add the DME at flame out, you'd still get cold break but not the foaming and things from adding it during a boil.

 

[cloudybrewer]

Thanks, Yooper!