Decoction Mash Video

[nathan]

my decoction doesn't take all that much longer than a single infusion. I do double decoctions and push the whole mash time out to 90 minutes from the initial infusion. Cleanup is maybe a tad longer with the extra pots.

Anyway, an electrician finished wiring my smooth-top cooktop out in my garage (it was free, unused top of the line one also!). Now I'll infuse and decoct using that and then go to propane for the boil.

 

[rurounikitsune]

Just finished mashing my first Enhanced Triple Decoction... 104, (122,) 140, 158, 170. This video really helped. Hopefully the taste will be proportional to the time and effort put into this... my first Doppelbock.

Now that I know I can pull off a decoction mash, I know I will use it for my home-grown malt. Thanks Kaiser.

 

[Piotr]

To do or not to do the decoction? Check this thread:

http://www.beertools.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=950

Back in 1989, I did a bunch of experiments with American and British fully modified malts in both infusion and decoction mash regemins as well as "fully modified" European malts (which are typically less modified than their British and American counterparts)and compared the results among 10 BJCP judges. All grists, hops and yeast used were the same with the exception being the base malts.

The concensus was that the technique was wasted on the British and American malts, but was noticable when used with the Euro. malts. We also mashed with undermodified malts: Budvar and Gamb. Czech Pilsen. Of course, these malts require decoction. The overall flavor favorites came from the Euro. and undermodified mashes.

Now the decision to decoct or not comes down to a law of diminishing returns.... were the favorites 50% better? NO ! More like 5-10% better. But the input labor and hassle was over 150% more! It is also messy and requires more equipment. Fun to play with, but not something I would do all the time !

 

[Kaiser]

To do or not to do the decoction? Check this thread:

You touched on one of the big debates in home brewing these days. Especially since the vast majority of German beers, that you can get here and are sold in Germany and not decocted anymore yet still ave that "German" taste.

My opinion is that every brewer should see for himself.

Kai

 

[Brandon O]

German beers take on a gourmet feeling and taste when decoction is used I think.

 

[DonArmando]

Do you sparge the decoction grists like any other AG method, using the ratio 2 quarters per pound ,or not?

 

[bradsul]

Do you sparge the decoction grists like any other AG method, using the ratio 2 quarters per pound ,or not?

The decoction process is separate from sparging so you would just use whatever your normal method is.

 

[Kaiser]

Do you sparge the decoction grists like any other AG method, using the ratio 2 quarters per pound ,or not?

Yes, you sparge like any other AG method. Like Brad said, it is separate from the mashing itself. The amount of water needed for the sparge depends on your pre-boil volume target. Given than decoction mashes are generally thinner (3.5 - 4.5 l/kg or 1.75-2.25 qt/lb) I'd expect that you end up using less sparge water. One rule of thumb I read in an old German brewing text was that mashing uses 2/3 of the water needed for brewing and sparging the other 3rd.

Kai

 

[menschmaschine]

Especially since the vast majority of German beers, that you can get here and are sold in Germany and not decocted anymore yet still ave that "German" taste.

So what are they doing exactly? Plain ol' single infusion?... A step mash with roughly the same temperature schedules (to fit the malt, of course) as a decoction mash? Any special technique in the mash, lauter, or boil?

 

[Kaiser]

So what are they doing exactly?

This is the "workhorse" mash in German brewing today:

dough-in above 57C or directly at 62-63C
63C for 30 - 40 min (maltose rest)
(65 C for ~30 min if very high fermentability is desired)
68-72C for 20 - 60 min (dextrinization rest)
76-78C - mash-out.

The whole mash takes 90 - 120 min.

Kai

 

[TeleTwanger]

that protein sludge on top of the mash is freakin' crazy! I love the chalk/iodine test, what a great idea.

 

[menschmaschine]

This is the "workhorse" mash in German brewing today:

dough-in above 57C or directly at 62-63C
63C for 30 - 40 min (maltose rest)
(65 C for ~30 min if very high fermentability is desired)
68-72C for 20 - 60 min (dextrinization rest)
76-78C - mash-out.

The whole mash takes 90 - 120 min.

Kai

Thanks for that. In your experience, what is a typical water:grain ratio for a German brewery in a Pilsner or Helles?... and does it increase with the steps in the mash schedule?

 

[Kaiser]

Thanks for that. In your experience, what is a typical water:grain ratio for a German brewery in a Pilsner or Helles?... and does it increase with the steps in the mash schedule?

4-5 l/kg (2-2.5 qt/lb) and it doesn't change during mashing as direct heat is used to move between the rests.

Kai

 

[menschmaschine]

4-5 l/kg (2-2.5 qt/lb) and it doesn't change during mashing as direct heat is used to move between the rests.

Kai

Wow, that seems like a lot compared to what most homebrewers do, even when we do lagers. Is this common throughout German brewing, or do some regions/styles use a lower water:grain ratio?... like Alts or Bocks, for example.

 

[Kaiser]

Wow, that seems like a lot compared to what most homebrewers do, even when we do lagers. Is this common throughout German brewing, or do some regions/styles use a lower water:grain ratio?... like Alts or Bocks, for example.

Yes this is a common ratio for lighter beers. The lower amount of sparge water will also reduce the amount of tannins extracted during sparge. For dark beers the mash tickness may be as low as 3 - 3.5 l/kg (1.5 to 1.75 l/kg) but not thicker as they become difficult to pump and stir.

The latter is the main historical reson for thin mashes in German brewing. B/c of decoction, German brewhouses had to be able to pump the mash as opposed to British brewhouses which mashed and lautered in the same vessel.

Early American home brewing adopted that Britsh style of brewing as it is ideal for the approach of having a single unheated vessel for mashing and lautering. Then craftbrewers adoped this b/c it is easy to build and it is what they did as home brewers. And home brewers keep doing it (the thick mashes I mean) b/c craft brewers do it and many home brewing texts say that the ideal mash thickness is around 1.25 qt/lb.

I gave been saying for a while that, at least for German beers, you should get away from this one-mash-fits all approach that Jamil and Co. are teaching. A thin mash, up to 4.5 l/kg as long as it fits in your MLT and works for the size of beer your are making, may work much better. They are more easy to stir and may even improve efficiency if your efficiency is limited by conversion efficienct (i.e. the % of starch that is converted).

Kai

 

[menschmaschine]

That's great info. Danke, Kai.

 

[Piotr]

I gave been saying for a while that, at least for German beers, you should get away from this one-mash-fits all approach that Jamil and Co. are teaching. A thin mash, up to 4.5 l/kg as long as it fits in your MLT and works for the size of beer your are making, may work much better.

I see one drawback: thin masch will produce less fermentable wort. I will be a problem in German Pils, which should be really dry.

 

[Kaiser]

I see one drawback: thin masch will produce less fermentable wort. I will be a problem in German Pils, which should be really dry.

Not in my experience. I get about 80-83% attenuation potential in my Pilsner mashes and could get more if I wanted to. In addition to that, in mash experiments I have not seen an attenuation difference between thick and thin mashes. A Pils should be mashed at 2 qt/lb or slightly above if you can.

Kai

 

[menschmaschine]

I see one drawback: thin masch will produce less fermentable wort. I will be a problem in German Pils, which should be really dry.

Actually, I understand the opposite to be true. (Not necessarily from experience, but from text.) A thick mash is supposed to produce the best overall extraction, but a thin mash favors maltose, and therefore attenuation.

 

[Piotr]

A thick mash is supposed to produce the best overall extraction, but a thin mash favors maltose, and therefore attenuation.

I heard different explanation - in thick mash b-amylase survives longer, so it can longer do the starch-cutting job.
This can be essential, my german pils I mashed 2.5 hours in 62-63*C, and didn't get full convertion, until I elevated temp to 68*C.

 

[menschmaschine]

I heard different explanation - in thick mash b-amylase survives longer, so it can longer do the starch-cutting job.

That's true, but I take it to more apply to a Protein rest (or acid rest). In other words, if you're doing a Protein rest, a thick mash will help more heat-labile enzymes to "survive" into the saccharification rest. This also explains why it's good (when doing a Protein rest) to start thick and gradually thin the mash as you increase rest temps for a more attenuable wort.

But in general, a thinner mash increases the proportion of maltose (to dextrins) and gives a higher attenuation potential.

 

[Piotr]

That's true, but I take it to more apply to a Protein rest (or acid rest). In other words, if you're doing a Protein rest, a thick mash will help more heat-labile enzymes to "survive" into the saccharification rest.

It is a shame that I can't find any data about the lenght of life of enzymes in varius temperatures. The only information is that drawing, I've found in a brewing book: (s**t, I don't know how to attach pictures here...)

Anyway, it says in 45*-50*C b-amylase lives forever, in 57*C ~2 hours, in 63C - 1 hour, in 70*C - 3-5 min (all that in a very thin mash).

So the protein-rest temperatures are no danger for enzymes.

 

[Mustangj]

Cool Video!!

New to all grain brewing.

I thought it was a bad idea to boil grains?

 

[menschmaschine]

It is a shame that I can't find any data about the lenght of life of enzymes in varius temperatures. The only information is that drawing, I've found in a brewing book: (s**t, I don't know how to attach pictures here...)

Anyway, it says in 45*-50*C b-amylase lives forever, in 57*C ~2 hours, in 63C - 1 hour, in 70*C - 3-5 min (all that in a very thin mash).

So the protein-rest temperatures are no danger for enzymes.

There's another thread about this on here and John Palmer (How To Brew) describes it best:

The grist/water ratio is another factor influencing the performance of the mash. A thinner mash of >2 quarts of water per pound of grain dilutes the relative concentration of the enzymes, slowing the conversion, but ultimately leads to a more fermentable mash because the enzymes are not inhibited by a high concentration of sugars. A stiff mash of <1.25 quarts of water per pound is better for protein breakdown, and results in a faster overall starch conversion, but the resultant sugars are less fermentable and will result in a sweeter, maltier beer. A thicker mash is more gentle to the enzymes because of the lower heat capacity of grain compared to water. A thick mash is better for multirest mashes because the enzymes are not denatured as quickly by a rise in temperature.

 

[TeleTwanger]

+1 on thinner mashes...I used to do 1qt/lbs but man that is more trouble than it's worth! Now I do around 1.6qts/lbs and I get great conversion (85% efficiency) and even without mash-out lautering is never a problem.

 

[zoebisch01]

Hey thanks so much for this Kaiser! Mods, can you make this a sticky?

 

[menschmaschine]

Cool Video!!

New to all grain brewing.

I thought it was a bad idea to boil grains?

This has been talked about a lot. It's fine to boil grains in a decoction. Greg Noonan says:

...because the density and pH of the decoction prevents phenols from being leached out of the husks.

So, you won't extract tannins like you would if you got a lot of grains in your boil after sparging.

 

[Mustangj]

thanks for the info.

Unfortinaly Boiling and grains come up a lot when doing a search.

 

[TeleTwanger]

thanks for the info.

Unfortinaly Boiling and grains come up a lot when doing a search.

Also as explained in the video, by boiling a thick decoction (mostly grain) after the mash sits long enough to disolve most of the enzymes the enzymes are not denatured, they are left in solution in the un-boiled liquor.

 

[korndog]

Today's brew. This is how I do a decoction. First I find a friend who is willing to stir the decoction...........hehe........nice vids kai.