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Decoction Mash Video

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menschmaschine

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I heard different explanation - in thick mash b-amylase survives longer, so it can longer do the starch-cutting job.
That's true, but I take it to more apply to a Protein rest (or acid rest). In other words, if you're doing a Protein rest, a thick mash will help more heat-labile enzymes to "survive" into the saccharification rest. This also explains why it's good (when doing a Protein rest) to start thick and gradually thin the mash as you increase rest temps for a more attenuable wort.

But in general, a thinner mash increases the proportion of maltose (to dextrins) and gives a higher attenuation potential.
 

Piotr

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That's true, but I take it to more apply to a Protein rest (or acid rest). In other words, if you're doing a Protein rest, a thick mash will help more heat-labile enzymes to "survive" into the saccharification rest.
It is a shame that I can't find any data about the lenght of life of enzymes in varius temperatures. The only information is that drawing, I've found in a brewing book: (s**t, I don't know how to attach pictures here...)

Anyway, it says in 45*-50*C b-amylase lives forever, in 57*C ~2 hours, in 63C - 1 hour, in 70*C - 3-5 min (all that in a very thin mash).

So the protein-rest temperatures are no danger for enzymes.
 

Mustangj

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Cool Video!!

New to all grain brewing.

I thought it was a bad idea to boil grains?
 

menschmaschine

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It is a shame that I can't find any data about the lenght of life of enzymes in varius temperatures. The only information is that drawing, I've found in a brewing book: (s**t, I don't know how to attach pictures here...)

Anyway, it says in 45*-50*C b-amylase lives forever, in 57*C ~2 hours, in 63C - 1 hour, in 70*C - 3-5 min (all that in a very thin mash).

So the protein-rest temperatures are no danger for enzymes.
There's another thread about this on here and John Palmer (How To Brew) describes it best:
The grist/water ratio is another factor influencing the performance of the mash. A thinner mash of >2 quarts of water per pound of grain dilutes the relative concentration of the enzymes, slowing the conversion, but ultimately leads to a more fermentable mash because the enzymes are not inhibited by a high concentration of sugars. A stiff mash of <1.25 quarts of water per pound is better for protein breakdown, and results in a faster overall starch conversion, but the resultant sugars are less fermentable and will result in a sweeter, maltier beer. A thicker mash is more gentle to the enzymes because of the lower heat capacity of grain compared to water. A thick mash is better for multirest mashes because the enzymes are not denatured as quickly by a rise in temperature.
 

TeleTwanger

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+1 on thinner mashes...I used to do 1qt/lbs but man that is more trouble than it's worth! Now I do around 1.6qts/lbs and I get great conversion (85% efficiency) and even without mash-out lautering is never a problem.
 

menschmaschine

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Cool Video!!

New to all grain brewing.

I thought it was a bad idea to boil grains?
This has been talked about a lot. It's fine to boil grains in a decoction. Greg Noonan says:
...because the density and pH of the decoction prevents phenols from being leached out of the husks.
So, you won't extract tannins like you would if you got a lot of grains in your boil after sparging.
 

Mustangj

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thanks for the info.

Unfortinaly Boiling and grains come up a lot when doing a search.
 

TeleTwanger

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thanks for the info.

Unfortinaly Boiling and grains come up a lot when doing a search.
Also as explained in the video, by boiling a thick decoction (mostly grain) after the mash sits long enough to disolve most of the enzymes the enzymes are not denatured, they are left in solution in the un-boiled liquor.
 

korndog

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Today's brew. This is how I do a decoction. First I find a friend who is willing to stir the decoction...........hehe........nice vids kai.

 
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Kaiser

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Today's brew. This is how I do a decoction. First I find a friend who is willing to stir the decoction...........hehe........nice vids kai.
Nice set-up indeed. Note that there should not be much stirring of the decoction necessary once it is converted. I keep the flame small enough to keep it from scorching. But I stir when I heat up to the comversion rest as the mash is thicker and I don't want to kill the enzymes that are on the bottom while the ones on the top are not even in their optimal temp range.

Kai
 

nathan

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I've been running a double decoction schedule as so:

mash-in to reach 148F, hold for 60
--at 30-40 minutes in, pull decoction and apply heat to boil until first 60 is up
return decoction until reaching 158F or just under (I don't sweat up to 4 degrees shy)
start a 30 minute timer at the 158F rest
--at about 10 minutes in, or sometimes right away, pull a second decoction (also using whatever was left, if any, from 1st decoction), bring to boil till 30 minute second rest is done
return to reach 168 for mash-out. If any left, let cool and return.

This has been producing some fantastic flavor, and my efficiency hit 88% in a cooler mash-tun, which is ridiculous.

My only trouble so far is getting it to sit at 158 in the decoction pot for a rest of 10 minutes before going up to boiling. I'm using a glass cooktop installed in a work counter in my garage, and it seems to stay hot under the decoction, increasing the heat when I get to 158 and turn it off. I haven't gotten good enough yet to anticipate the extra rise. BUT - I'm almost done with my single tier. WIth that I will have my old turkey frier as a decoction vessel, so I can kill the flame completely for the 10 minute rest at 158, which will make things easier. Also the larger batch size and larger decoction should make it easier.

My new rig will eventually end up with a coil in the HLT to recirculate to control mash temps, so when that happens I won't worry as much about the decoction return coming up shy of the target. Right now that is often the case, but I can't really pull larger decoctions with the glass cooktop setup yet. Ahhh how this hobby pulls you in deeper and deeper!
 
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Kaiser

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This has been producing some fantastic flavor, and my efficiency hit 88% in a cooler mash-tun, which is ridiculous.
glad to hear that it works for you.

My only trouble so far is getting it to sit at 158 in the decoction pot for a rest of 10 minutes before going up to boiling. I'm using a glass cooktop installed in a work counter in my garage, and it seems to stay hot under the decoction, increasing the heat when I get to 158 and turn it off.
can you just move if off the burner?

Kai
 

nathan

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damn.
Sometimes I am an absolute RETARD.
That's just so simple, and doesn't require me to weld, grind, plumb, or wire anything. That's probably why I couldn't think of it myself!

I'll do that Saturday. I usually have my first round of batch-sparge water in a pot on one burner, but that leaves enough room still to slide it over I think. If not, I can just put a wood block on the countertop there and set the pot on that like a cheap hot-pad.
 

nathan

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with a blushing face, I must admit that sliding the pot sideways off the hot burner worked fine. I'm still trying to figure out how to get beersmith to tell me how to decoct the proper amount, since I usually just pull more than called for, but this one little tip helped a lot.
 
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Kaiser

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I'm still trying to figure out how to get beersmith to tell me how to decoct the proper amount
It can't tell you that b/c it doesn't know how much water your are going to boil off during the decoction, how much the main mash dropped in temp and/or what the water/grist ratio in the decoction is.

Simply pull a little more than calculated and if a lot is left over after reaching the temp adjust for it the next time you brew this recipe.

Kai
 

jimba009

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Thanks for the videos Kai! After watching these videos I am not as intimidated by the process. One noob question, do you pull as much grain as possible for the decoction?
 
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Kaiser

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No, I only pull as much as what fits in the desired decoction volume with a thickness of about 1.25 qt/lb.

Kai
 

wscott823

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Kai, thank you so much for putting together this excellent video series. I've been reading through decoction methods in Noonan's Brewing Lager Beer, but even after reading through it a couple times it still was a little unclear how to perform decoctions with minimal equipment :confused:. It's so helpful to see the process in action.

:mug: Thanks much
 

Brewin_CRAZY

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Really great video, decoctions are a lot of fun, time consuming but fun. Gotta love a good German brew following the exact decoction. I think this should be a sticky for AG brewing because I am sure there are a lot of people that want to try a decoction but just dont know where to start.

I would have loved to watch this video before my first one, I actually tried to pour from my mash tun into a brew kettle... that turned into a very sticky mess, but hey it worked... kinda.
 

petep1980

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I'll be trying my third decoction within a week or so. Kaiser you could not have spelled it out more easily. Before I had an idea what I was doing, now I am beginning to understand the processes and everything.
 
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Kaiser

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They are still there, at least for me. Search YouTube or Google for Decoction Mash video if you still don't see them.

Kai
 

Andri

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Thanks for the video, really interesting to watch. I'll have to watch it two times to get it through my thick skull. I'm new to all grain.
 

Boerderij_Kabouter

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Prost! All of Kaiser's contributions have really helped me in my brewing. I feel like I have a very good handle on almost all aspects of my brew day now. His brew log and efficiency spread sheet are now a staple of my brewing.

Decoction is a fun way to add some depth to simple grain bills and has a cool factor that can't be touched.

Thanks again!
 

martinworswick

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i read somewhere that you shouldn't allow grain into your boil kettle for reasons i can't remember at the moment, how does this differ? is it the length of time the grain is actually boiling for?

cheers
martin
 

Beezer94

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Thanks for the great video. :mug:

Man I thought I finally was having faster brew days, now I find a way to that will make them longer than ever! :cross:
 

paint_it_black

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Really awesome! Simple enough to understand easily, detailed enough to be very informative and useful. Thanks!
 
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