Decision time

[stooby]

Been away from brewing for some time but just brewed a few batches and I'm stoked again. A couple of things that stood out on my brew days were time needed to heat wort and cool down time. I BIAB and have an old turkey fryer burner and an immersion chiller. So I was looking at a Blichmann Hellfire and decided to look at a diy electric setup. The $150 I'd spend on the Hellfire could go toward the electric setup. Question is how little I could spend on setting it up. I'm pretty handy so I wouldn't have to hire anybody to get it done. I've done some research here and it seems I'll need a PID controller, temp probe, element, spa GFCI and some wiring. Anyone who can give an estimate on whole enchilada? I'm into a fast simple brew day. I currently have a 10 gal pot but leaning toward getting keggle and going to 10 gal batches. Not sure how to speed up the cooling process

 

[NewJersey]

i have a 10 gallon setup. I'm going back to a 5 gallon setup on eletric elements and controllers.

 

[augiedoggy]

all I normally brew are 10 gallons brews with an occasional 5 here and there.. I cant help you much on quoting a system other than to say if your somewhat handy, you can build your own for about half of the cost of the cheapest 240v system ive seen out there. When I build my first system I was really on a budget and built the panel in my avatar pic for under $300.. the whole system in my build thread below kept evolving but I built the 3 bayou classic +rims setup for under $1200 with the pumps and chiller. if you just want an electric single pump BIAB those can be made for about $300-400 I'll warn you though its easy to end up spending way more.

 

[stooby]

My system would be simple. No pump, just need to heat the water to mash temp, use the PID to maintain temp, and then heat to boil. My issue is wiring up the control box, I don't have the electrical knowledge to wire up spa panel to control box and the relay, PID etc inside the box. It appears with my limited searching that it would be within my budget. Am I missing something necessary to build it?

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

Do you intend to use the PID to maintain the mash (water + grain) temperature? If so, then I would highly recommend a pump to recirculate from the bottom of the kettle back up to the top. You need liquid to flow across the temperature sensor and heating element in order to control the mash temperature.

Without a pump, the heater will kick on, but the temperature probe won't see the heat for a long time without moving the fluid around. That means the heater will be on for a long time before the PID sees it.

This is not like heating a pot of water; with just water in a pot, the water will naturally circulate as the warmer water rises and the colder water drops to the heating element. The grain will restrict this movement and cause problems like scorching the wort right near the heating element and major swings in your overall mash temperature.

 

[stooby]

I wouldn't think the PID would turn on the element much would it? Presently the mash temp stays within a couple of degrees

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

I wouldn't think the PID would turn on the element much would it? Presently the mash temp stays within a couple of degrees

Probably not, BUT when it does turn on, it will stay on for a while, and that's when you risk scorching and overshooting your temperature.

If you hold mash temp ok without heating, you could just use the PID to heat the water, dough in, and then let the mash sit without applying heat like a standard infusion mash. Of course, then you aren't really using the PID to it's full capability, but I really doubt it will be able to maintain a consistent mash temperature unless you are flowing liquid around the sensor and heating element.

Pumps can be pretty cheap...wouldn't take much to add: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01G305PK0/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[mongoose33]

I just switched to electric brewing this summer. Among the biggest expenses were:

1. Run 240-v wiring to garage. This was approximately $460 including the wire (6 gauge), sub-panel box in the garage, circuit breakers (including a $103 GFI for the 30-amp circuit). Also included building wiring chases. And that's with me doing a lot of the work of running wire, drilling holes, installing the panel and wiring chases.

2. Panel. It's the hardest decision, IMO. You can go very cheap with something like the StillDragon, but I wasn't comfortable w/ it. Pre-made ones are very pricey. I ended up buying the Auber kit for $370 and assembling it myself. Saved a few hundred dollars doing that.

3. Cords and element and such. The element was $75 (5500w), the cords varying amounts. That stuff is not cheap. For instance, I needed a cord from the panel to the element, and it was $35 plus shipping.

I'm not saying I regret this--on the contrary, I am really loving it so far. But cheap it has not been.

 

[stooby]

What exactly were you not comfortable with on the Stilldragon panel? As far as using the PID I figured I'd set the strike temp, get things ready for brewday while waiting for alarm, then after mash set it for 212. But I'm not familiar with PID, does it have a rotary dial to back it down when reaching boil? Do u think I even need it or something like a PWM (whatever that is) I've got a temp gauge on my brew kettle

 

[augiedoggy]

still dragon would work like an electric stovetop, basically pwm. these not much too it honestly and they are totally safe and to code really. they use an ssvr ...
I second that you want a pump or dont bother using the element while mashing.. youll have a mess or inconsistent temps.

also all you need is a 30a circuit.(10/3 gauge romex) .. the 6 gauge wire is going to cost at least 2-3 times as much and its a lot harder to run. a 5500w element draws 23 amps so.. and you can pump a pump into a regular 120v circuit. unless you antispate having a 3 vessel electric rims setup Id stick with a 30a circuit like most dryer outlets are.

you can just use a 50a spa panel wired inline plugged into a 30a circuit as well to save money.. the gfci protection works for any load UP TO 50a these spa panels with breaker are only like $60 online and 75 at HD.. Its easy to convince yourself to spend much more than you have to. it really depends on what you want to do.

if you do go with a pid I recomment an ezboil or mypin TD4-snr they both have manual mode. for boil control and ive used both with good results.

theres not a lot to wiring them up really as long as you have a diagram. two power wires to power it(120 or 240v will work as its auto sensing) two output wires to go to the ssr (positive and negative ) and 3 wires that come from the temp probe.

 

[mongoose33]

What exactly were you not comfortable with on the Stilldragon panel? As far as using the PID I figured I'd set the strike temp, get things ready for brewday while waiting for alarm, then after mash set it for 212. But I'm not familiar with PID, does it have a rotary dial to back it down when reaching boil? Do u think I even need it or something like a PWM (whatever that is) I've got a temp gauge on my brew kettle

I looked at it and wondered if I'd be wishing I'd done something else. Based on what some have posted on HBT, it appears to work. But I've bought enough stuff that later I wish I'd upgraded ahead of time instead of spending on cheap only to set it aside and buy something else.

If I knew enough about parts and such, I could have maybe added a keyed switch--something I think is important in such a panel. I don't want some buddy in the brew cave looking at it and turning it on to see how it works only to burn out the element.

If it had been a choice between the Stilldragon and a $700 panel (Auber has a refurbushed panel for somewhere in that range), I'd have likely tried the Stilldragon.

 

[Gameface]

I looked at it and wondered if I'd be wishing I'd done something else. Based on what some have posted on HBT, it appears to work. But I've bought enough stuff that later I wish I'd upgraded ahead of time instead of spending on cheap only to set it aside and buy something else.

If I knew enough about parts and such, I could have maybe added a keyed switch--something I think is important in such a panel. I don't want some buddy in the brew cave looking at it and turning it on to see how it works only to burn out the element.

If it had been a choice between the Stilldragon and a $700 panel (Auber has a refurbushed panel for somewhere in that range), I'd have likely tried the Stilldragon.

The whole keyed switch thing is for show, imho. You want security, pull the plug out of the wall. I've had a 50a panel for years, no one has felt the need to just randomly start pushing buttons on it. But whatever, a keyed switch is cheap, if it makes you feel better get one.

 

[Bobby_M]

You can save a lot of money by going with dual 1650w elements because you can plug them into existing 15 amp circuits and you can also start brewing right away without a controller since 3300 watts is a nice rolling boil with 7 gallons preboil volumes. If you want to get fancy, you can put one of those elements on the $99 Inkbird IPB-16 controller which would be used to control the mash temps.

 

[mongoose33]

The whole keyed switch thing is for show, imho. You want security, pull the plug out of the wall. I've had a 50a panel for years, no one has felt the need to just randomly start pushing buttons on it. But whatever, a keyed switch is cheap, if it makes you feel better get one.

Well, one thing we should try not to do is project our own experiences on others. My plug is very difficult to get in and out. I'd rather have a switch. And I'd rather have something that ensures it can't be inadvertantly turned on. Your desires may be different, and that's OK.

 

[SanPancho]

You can save a lot of money by going with dual 1650w elements because you can plug them into existing 15 amp circuits and you can also start brewing right away without a controller since 3300 watts is a nice rolling boil with 7 gallons preboil volumes. If you want to get fancy, you can put one of those elements on the $99 Inkbird IPB-16 controller which would be used to control the mash temps.

Mr bobby- sent you a pm on unrelated note. 1.5 tc pull thru. Thx

 

[Gameface]

Well, one thing we should try not to do is project our own experiences on others. My plug is very difficult to get in and out. I'd rather have a switch. And I'd rather have something that ensures it can't be inadvertantly turned on. Your desires may be different, and that's OK.

Certainly not trying to project my own experiences onto you. And of course you are free to build your panel however you'd like and there's nothing at all wrong with the keyswitch for main power, as it is essentially the standard people follow based on Kal's original design. Hopefully I didn't offend you as that wasn't my intention.

My post here was not an attempt to tell you what to do or imply you're doing something wrong. These threads are read by people who don't post far more often than they are read by people who do post. When someone is reading threads like this to figure out what they are going to do on their own panel it is common for them to follow the standard practices they see others follow. If they see that everyone has a keyswitch they will likely also use a keyswitch, even if they don't really know why, just because that's the way it's done.

I posted my opinion on kewswitches so that people know that a keyswitch is not a mandatory part of a control panel build. It is not normal behavior for a person not familiar with a control panel to start pushing buttons. That would be absolutely bizarre behavior for anyone older than 5. So it's my opinion that a keyswitch doesn't add anything of value to your typical ebrewery control panel. I feel like I have every right to express that opinion so that people reading this at least know that opinion exists and that they have options beyond using a keyswitch.

 

[mongoose33]

It is not normal behavior for a person not familiar with a control panel to start pushing buttons.

Maybe. And maybe 9 people out of 10 won't do that. I'm more concerned about the 10th. And even being unplugged doesn't mean they won't plug it in to see the lights light up or whatever they're hoping to see.

So it's my opinion that a keyswitch doesn't add anything of value to your typical ebrewery control panel. I feel like I have every right to express that opinion so that people reading this at least know that opinion exists and that they have options beyond using a keyswitch.

Sure. And it's my opinion that having a failsafe is a good thing. And it's your opinion that having one doesn't add anything, if you're willing to accept your assumptions. Fair enough.