Decision Time.. Need advice on mash phase of my new brewery

[r8rphan]

Hi, I'm almost done with my new brewery build which can be seen in my BUILD THREAD..

Anyways, It's a single vessel, Electric BIAB system with recirculation during Mash and cooling...

I am at the point where I need to set up the mash basket and associated plumbing, and have some ideas running through my head, but need to get advice as to feasibility, some ideas for problem solving, and success/horror stories of others who have gone down this path before me...

Essentially, I have a crane that will lower a Bayou Classic basket with a bag full of grains in it, down into the keggle for the mash.. A pump is fed from the bottom of the keggle and sent back up to the top of the keggle through 1/2" silicone tubing to the mash grain basket...

So I need to decide how I want to return the wort to the grains during mash, and how to rinse them afterwards to get as much of the sugars from them as possible..

What I was originally planning on doing was to build a COFI tube from 1/2" copper tube and drilling holes in it, but I have been trying to figure out how to incorporate that into a basket mount that will support the basket if the crane is detached.. I want to support it by hanging it on the top of the keggle, but I'd like to make it so that it is easily removable allowing the basket to slide all the way down into the keggle during storage once the heating element is removed.. That will allow me to store pretty much everything (keggle support stand, pump, hoses, heater element, etc.) in the keggle, and put it under my brew stand/counter when not in use..

I'm visualizing some sort of spider that the COFI tube mounts to, that sits on the keggle rim, and the basket hangs from the spider in 3 or 4 places (maybe with SS screw eyes sticking up from the rim of the basket, and the spider legs sliding though them)

So, I am looking for pros and cons of the COFI tube method, examples of those who have made their own, any hybrids, and experiences with them...

Secondly, I was originally planning to slowly raise the grains and allow the pump to keep recirculating through the grains as a rinse step, but then I got to thinking, would not it be better to just run the fresh make up water through them while the basket is raised out of the wort to rinse the grains?

If so, would I want to use the COFI tube for this too, or would I want to switch to something else that is more like a shower head to hit the entire top of the grain bed and let it drain down through the grains?

Also, I have a tankless water heater for my house, and it is set to 145 degrees, so the hottest I could run through there as fresh water is about 130-135 degrees (the temp by the time it hits point of use).. This is far short of the 165-170 degrees that is typically used for the rinse step in a traditional mash/rinse set up (like my old mash tun/cooler).. Is that a problem? Or would cold water be a better thing to use to rinse it with?

Or there any benefit in doing this at all?

How is the rinse phase of mashing typically accomplished in BIAB systems?

Anyways, I have to come up with a plan to start working towards pretty much 'now'.. so any and all help is appreciated...

 

[doug293cz]

Recirculating wort thru the grain bed will not rinse additional sugar from the grains, as the grains and wort should be in concentration equilibrium after a recirculating (or well stirred for a static) mash. To extract additional sugar you need to add fresh water. To get the highest lauter efficiency with your configuration, do a batch sparge, and recirculate to bring the sparge wort and grain into concentration equilibrium. I don't think your configuration lends itself to a fly sparge that could beat a batch sparge for efficiency.

Others have found the need to increase the open area of Bayou Classic baskets in order to get adequate drainage, and keep from pumping the volume under the basket dry.

Brew on

 

[r8rphan]

The whole point of this build is to get away from the multi vessel thing.. So batch sparging is out.. (unless I get so frustrated with efficiency that I feel like I 'must' add a second vessel)


So fly sparging using fresh water while the basket is out of (suspended above) the wort won't wash the sugars out of the grain?.. I was thinking that it 'should' at least get a little more out of them....

And that's what I was thinking about using wort to try and rinse with, you're adding sugars back in to wash the others out... which is why I'm wondering about sparging with fresh water with the basket out of the wort..

and yes, I fully expect to have to take my greenlee hole punches (an advantage of being an electrical contractor.. ) to the basket, although I thought I'd try it without modification first..

 

[doug293cz]

...

So fly sparging using fresh water while the basket is out of (suspended above) the wort won't wash the sugars out of the grain?.. I was thinking that it 'should' at least get a little more out of them....

Pouring/spraying fresh water over the grain in the basket will get out additional sugar, and improve your efficiency. It's probably not going to be as efficient as a proper batch sparge or a well conducted fly sparge. It will also not be as consistent (read predictable.) Predictability is more important than maximizing efficiency. But it might be predictable enough.

Brew on

 

[wilserbrewer]

Or there any benefit in doing this at all?

Sounds like you are pretty far down the rabbit hole already j/k

While a sparge step will increase your efficiency, an extra pound of grain can simplify the process.

I like to keep everything as simple as possible and dial in from there. How close a fit is your basket to the keggle? A large volume outside the basket can be an issue with larger grain bill resulting in a thicker mash inside the basket.

 

[r8rphan]

Sounds like you are pretty far down the rabbit hole already j/k

While a sparge step will increase your efficiency, an extra pound of grain can simplify the process.

I like to keep everything as simple as possible and dial in from there. How close a fit is your basket to the keggle? A large volume outside the basket can be an issue with larger grain bill resulting in a thicker mash inside the basket.

The basket is 12.5" diameter, and the keggle is 15" diameter.. So there is a 1.25" space all around the basket... Is that a problem?

By sparge step increasing efficiency, I am assuming you are referring to my question about using fresh water that I have to add to the wort anyways for this? If so, does it matter what temperature is used?

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

The eBIAB system that I use looks very similar to the setup that you mention. I sparge my grains by lifting the basket of grains above the wort and then pouring 168F sparge water through them. With the room created by lifting out the grains the sparge tops off the wort in the kettle to the pre-boil volume.

 

[r8rphan]

The eBIAB system that I use looks very similar to the setup that you mention. I sparge my grains by lifting the basket of grains above the wort and then pouring 168F sparge water through them. With the room created by lifting out the grains the sparge tops off the wort in the kettle to the pre-boil volume.

That's pretty much what I'm talking about doing.. As stated in the original post, the hottest I can get to will be about 135 degrees or so for the sparge water.. Is this an issue, or would it be better to use cold water?

I understand that just below 170 is ideal, but isn't that mainly to just release as much remaining sugar as possible without creating tanins? I'm wondering how much having a lower temp sparge water affects that?

Also, how do you have it set up for the sprage? What method are you using to actually deposit the sparge water in or on the grain? Picture?

What kind of efficiencies are you getting?

 

[doug293cz]

Sparge water temp matters little. Although the hotter the sparge water, the quicker the heat to boil time will be.

Brew on

 

[r8rphan]

So as everyone can understand what I'm doing here, here are a couple pictures of the system so far...

From reading in another thread, it sounds like using cold water (or hot water from the tap) to sparge with won't really be a big deal.. It should work fine..

 

[r8rphan]

Here's a couple shots showing the general plumbing

 

[r8rphan]

I'm thinking that maybe before I build a COFI tube and all that, I should just try a batch with the hose laying on top of the grain bed along the side of the basket so that it just whirlpools in... and then adjust things on the next batch as needed...

I'm thinking I might even try one of these right off the bat, and maybe it will be all I need for both mash and sparge... Seems like I can get what I need for around $20 plus another $15 or so for a ball valve and cam lock QD....

Might go ahead and punch out the basket before the first batch...

Thoughts?

 

[doug293cz]

I wouldn't use hot water right out of the tap for sparging. Probably needs campden treatment (for chlorine/chloramines), and maybe acidification to prevent tannin extraction (depends on your water's alkalinity.)

Brew on

 

[r8rphan]

I use well water.. So no chlorine.. Does that make any difference?

 

[doug293cz]

I use well water.. So no chlorine.. Does that make any difference?

You shouldn't need campden. What is the alkalinity of your water?

Brew on

 

[r8rphan]

You shouldn't need campden. What is the alkalinity of your water?

Brew on

I dunno, a PH tester is one of those things that has been 'on the list' for like 5 years..

But I had always been in the habit of adding some 5.2 stabilizer to my mash tun just in case... But I added enough for the entire post boil wort in with the mash itself, not with the batch sparge water, as it was all added together in the BK..

I wonder how I could do that during a fresh water sparge?

 

[r8rphan]

Anyone assembled the loc-line pieces without the assembly tool? Is it necessary? Or will I hate myself for not buying it?

I love tools, and collect/hoard them like they're going out of style, but I'm not sure about this one as I'll probably only use it once....

 

[doug293cz]

I dunno, a PH tester is one of those things that has been 'on the list' for like 5 years..

But I had always been in the habit of adding some 5.2 stabilizer to my mash tun just in case... But I added enough for the entire post boil wort in with the mash itself, not with the batch sparge water, as it was all added together in the BK..

I wonder how I could do that during a fresh water sparge?

A pH meter won't tell you what your alkalinity is, and pH of the starting water is pretty much meaningless for brewing. The alkalinity determines who much the water can raise the pH of the mash, which is what does matter. High pH water with low alkalinity can't raise mash pH much. You need to get a water report from Ward labs, or get a "do it yourself" alkalinity test kit.

Also, the water experts on HBT tell us that 5.2 stabilizer is worthless. Better off learning what is in your water, and adjusting as needed. It's not that difficult to do, and you don't have to understand the underlying chemistry in order to use the tools available.

Brew on

 

[r8rphan]

A pH meter won't tell you what your alkalinity is, and pH of the starting water is pretty much meaningless for brewing. The alkalinity determines who much the water can raise the pH of the mash, which is what does matter. High pH water with low alkalinity can't raise mash pH much. You need to get a water report from Ward labs, or get a "do it yourself" alkalinity test kit.

Also, the water experts on HBT tell us that 5.2 stabilizer is worthless. Better off learning what is in your water, and adjusting as needed. It's not that difficult to do, and you don't have to understand the underlying chemistry in order to use the tools available.

Brew on

Reading an informative article on the subject, and 'this' might be why I never seem to be able to get the hop flavor I'm after... Everything always seems to be on the malty side... Could 'never' get decent aroma.. I have been going through all sorts of ideas in my head to try and increase hop flavor/aroma, because dry hopping in the keg wasn't really doing anything either.. I started using a hop randall in line between the keg and the faucet, but that clouded up the beer and made it more bitter, but still not the aroma...

probably also why the beer kits I would buy from B3, that used extract and crushed specialty grains always seemed better than my own...

WATER CHEMISTRY ARTICLE

So, I had always assumed that my water was good water because it was well water, and that whatever issues it might have would be fixed with the 5.2 stuff... 'Assuming' strikes again!

Anyways, $50 bucks for a water test is kinda steep for a one time deal...

I only see two kits available for brewing thus far, LaMotte brew lab basic at $110 and LaMotte brewlab plus (includes Digital PH meter) for $180...

Crap! More money!

Is there a less expensive alternative to those two kits, that would allow me to test regularly here at home?

 

[wilserbrewer]

I think Ward labs is less than $20 for the relevant brewing water tests.

 

[r8rphan]

$42

WARD LABS BREWERS TEST PRICES

That includes Shipping.. It's $27.50 if you get your own container, packaging, and ship yourself...

There is a local ag testing lab down in the valley.. I called them a bit ago and have to call back because the pricing lady was out to lunch..

But the problem with doing it that way, is you have no way to test after you've made adjustments.. or no way to test periodically to see if the water is consistent.. or is any of that important?

 

[r8rphan]

Well, the local lab is out.. They want $20 for each thing tested... That would cost a small fortune..

 

[r8rphan]

If I were to start with distilled water, would I be able to know what to add to it without any testing? Perhaps I could do that for a couple batches, and then get a home testing kit a couple months down the road?

 

[r8rphan]

I think a good plan of attack is to stay on course for now... I'm gonna order a book on water chemistry for brewers, and in the mean time I'm going to just keep going as I originally planned.. If feasible, I'll use distilled water and modify it as if it were a blank slate... I'll use a bucket to have modified water for the sparge, and come up with a way to switch out the drain of the keggle that is normally connected to the pump, to the bucket and have it feed the pump and on up to the lifted basket...

In the mean time, I'll plan on buying a test kit, and almost certainly get my water tested at Ward Labs....

So the first batch might just be straight from the tap and not worrying about it... Call it a test run where I can dial in things like recirculation speed, and see if I have any problems with flow or what not, and adjust what I can on the fly... The next batch I'll probably do the distilled water thing, and then hopefully, by the time I do the batch after that, I can have had the water tested and be thinking about getting a test kit...

I'll keep the yeast side of things simple and straightforward for now, focusing on getting the mash process and a new fermenter set up...

That's enough to deal with for now...

So, back to talking about the best sparging set up for me..

 

[ferm.adventures]

I'm in a similar situation. I've gone single vessel eBIAB, with full volume mash. But I'm not too happy with conversion time with such a thin mash. Clean up time savings is being lost to extended mash time.

Next batch I'll probably go with a thicker mash, and do a dunk sparge in treated cold water in a bucket, then add to kettle, and stop squeezing the stupid bag. Should be simple clean up from there.

 

[doug293cz]

The easiest thing for you to do is use RO (reverse osmosis) or distilled water, and build up a suitable water profile. Both RO and distilled are close enough to blank slates that you can assume that's what they are. Use Bru'nWater, EZWater, or BrewersFriend to calculate your water additions (I prefer Bru'n.) Put in your grain bill and adjust the additions for a predicted 5.45 pH. The calculators are not perfect, but if you are anywhere near 5.4 - 5.5 you should get good results. However, there is an on-going cost of about $0.35 - $1.00/gal for purchased water.

The mineral content and alkalinity from wells can vary throughout the year, depending on how your aquifer is fed. One strategy would be to get a test just past the end of the local dry season, and again just past the end of the local wet season. This should hopefully give you a good idea of the range that you can experience from your well. If the range is tight enough, you may be able to work from an "average" profile and be ok. If the range thru the year is high, then sticking with RO or distilled may be your best bet. If you are going to use RO long term, it may be cost effective to install your own RO system.

I don't have any experience or particular expertise in water testing kits, so can't offer any suggestions there. Head over to the Brew Science Forum to ask about water testing and adjustment.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

I'm in a similar situation. I've gone single vessel eBIAB, with full volume mash. But I'm not too happy with conversion time with such a thin mash. Clean up time savings is being lost to extended mash time.

Next batch I'll probably go with a thicker mash, and do a dunk sparge in treated cold water in a bucket, then add to kettle, and stop squeezing the stupid bag. Should be simple clean up from there.

Thinner mashes actually convert faster than thicker mashes (ref: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency#Mash_thickness.) If your mashes are taking too long to convert, it is more likely that your crush is too coarse. How are you determining that your mash conversion has gotten worse for a given mash time?

Brew on

 

[TexasWine]

The easiest thing for you to do is use RO (reverse osmosis) or distilled water, and build up a suitable water profile.

I'll second @doug293cz advice here. I only use RO water. It's $0.30/gallon at the Kroger down the street. Average batch of beer takes about 8 gallons, so it only costs me about $2.40 per batch. I buy 20-25 gallons at a time so I only need to run to the store every 3 batches or so. This is no big deal for me as there's always something else I need to buy at the grocery store.

Using RO water is important to me because I want repeatable results.

 

[wilserbrewer]

The basket is 12.5" diameter, and the keggle is 15" diameter.. So there is a 1.25" space all around the basket... Is that a problem?

Not sure it is a problem, I am just concerned with how much volume you have outside the basket as compared to inside the basket, from your pics it looks like there is 4 to 4 1/2 gallons of dead space below the basket, and given the dimensions, the basket is only 68% of the cross sectional area of the pot. So with 10 gallons of strike water in the pot, only (10 - 4) X 0.68 = 4 gallons of strike water is available inside the basket for the mash, and with a 12 lb grain bill your at 1 qt/lb mash thickness....I just find it gets odd if the basket is considerably smaller than the vessel, plus dead space below the basket. For large beers you may be short of liquor inside the basket to mash effectively, and be limited on sparge volume if any at all?

A five gallon batch may not be possible, not sure if that is your goal.

 

[r8rphan]

Not sure it is a problem, I am just concerned with how much volume you have outside the basket as compared to inside the basket, from your pics it looks like there is 4 to 4 1/2 gallons of dead space below the basket, and given the dimensions, the basket is only 68% of the cross sectional area of the pot. So with 10 gallons of strike water in the pot, only (10 - 4) X 0.68 = 4 gallons of strike water is available inside the basket for the mash, and with a 12 lb grain bill your at 1 qt/lb mash thickness....I just find it gets odd if the basket is considerably smaller than the vessel, plus dead space below the basket. For large beers you may be short of liquor inside the basket to mash effectively, and be limited on sparge volume if any at all?

A five gallon batch may not be possible, not sure if that is your goal.

Generally, I do IPAs and Pale Ales.. 11+ gallon batches... Pre boil is typically about 12.5-13 gallons... With my prior efficiency of 80% that means 24-25 pounds of grain for the IPAs, and under 20 for the Pale Ales.... I'd like to get to a point where that efficiency goes up...

I just went out and held the basket against the sight glass at where it will probably be and there is just over 4 gallons below the basket, with 13 gallons about an inch below the top, so that allows 9 gallons x .6904 = 6.21 gallons... is that enough for the type of beers I'm trying to do?

I would like to try a couple of bigger beers at some point, like Arrogant Bastard or Vinnie's Blind Pig clones.. But my basket is probably not big enough to hold all that grain for a 10-11G brew of those, while still allowing for an inch or two of liquid on top of the grain bed.. I figured on those, I'd do an 8 gallon batch or so.....

I hope it's big enough, as custom baskets are not cheap...

I just pulled up some of my old recipes and it appears I was mashing with anywhere from 5.3G strike water for the lighter stuff, to 7.8G for the bigger stuff.. But in general, most of the IPAs were right at 7G and most of the Pale Ales were right at about 6G... That was in a mash tun cooler with no recirculation...

So, as long as I can get the flow going good, I still have an inch of headroom on the basket and can maybe add a little more water.. or if I go with 10G batches instead, I should be getting close to what I had before in regards to strike volume on the IPAs, otherwise, I'll be using about 12-13% less strike water than I was then......

The only time I would be doing a 5 gallon batch is if I bought a beer kit, and that would likely be with malt extract + specialty grains...