Decant Step Starter?

[Pancoastbrewing]

Hello! Yesterday, I made a 1.5L starter for a 1.050ish lager with one pack of yeast. I want to step up and do another 1.5L starter. I plan to decant the original 1.5L starter before stepping up. Do I absolutely need to cold crash that batch before decanting or can I just decant warm after it’s stopped fermenting? I know crashing is best but I would be concerned about the wild temp swings that would be required to do that. I plan to brew some time in the next few days so I don’t want to put the yeast through that much stress in a short period. Thoughts?

 

[balrog]

I thought the yeast multiplied to the wort sugar concentration/size, so if you make a 1.5L followed by the same size starter, you don't pick up that much the second time, but the calculators seem to indicate there is some growth (I personally like Homebrewdad's).

That being said, the crash-before-decanting question for me depends solely on the time i have before using the starter. If you don't let it settle, whether cold or not, then you will be decanting yeast still in suspension. I use a stir plate, so I have no sediment yeast layer unless i let it settle first. Overnight room temp settling makes a nice layer but there is still a lot of yeast in suspension. Overnight in fridge clears up about 1/2 the liquid nicely and that's what I do. I know it's temp swinging but it works for me; overnight in fridge, decant first thing when I start brewing the next day, 3-4hrs later when it's pitching time the starter has come to room temp.

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

I thought the yeast multiplied to the wort sugar concentration/size, so if you make a 1.5L followed by the same size starter, you don't pick up that much the second time, but the calculators seem to indicate there is some growth (I personally like Homebrewdad's).

That being said, the crash-before-decanting question for me depends solely on the time i have before using the starter. If you don't let it settle, whether cold or not, then you will be decanting yeast still in suspension. I use a stir plate, so I have no sediment yeast layer unless i let it settle first. Overnight room temp settling makes a nice layer but there is still a lot of yeast in suspension. Overnight in fridge clears up about 1/2 the liquid nicely and that's what I do. I know it's temp swinging but it works for me; overnight in fridge, decant first thing when I start brewing the next day, 3-4hrs later when it's pitching time the starter has come to room temp.

Interesting on the bigger size for the step. I figured I would need to crash to avoid dumping good yeast.

Also, I've noticed that when I use my stir plate in my 2L flask (I don't run it continuously), it wants to overflow. I can only run the plate for very short intervals. Have you experienced anything like this?

 

[balrog]

My "flask" is a 1G jug. Went through a couple before finding one with a bottom that would work with the stir bar. My only overflow issues come when I make starters of WY1007 German Ale for my Alaskan Amber clone, as that yeast tends to be quite foam producing.

 

[mongoose33]

If you don't crash that starter, you're decanting off the least flocculent yeast, which isn't likely what you want.

 

[balrog]

 

[mongoose33]

View attachment 595380

What's your process for a starter? I boil DME and RO water in the flask for about 5 minutes, but I always use a drop of Fermcap-S in there so I don't get a boilover. That, of course, limits krausen in the starter, usually resulting in a very thin skim of bubbles at the edges, and maybe a little in the vortex.

I never get a krausen like that, for understandable reasons.

Also, what's the purpose of the paper plate? Spacer to move the flask away from the stir plate? Added support?

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

If you don't crash that starter, you're decanting off the least flocculent yeast, which isn't likely what you want.

Wouldn’t you want more flocculent yeast if brewing a lager?

 

[mongoose33]

Wouldn’t you want more flocculent yeast if brewing a lager?

My thinking is this: toward the end with a lager (or any beer I brew, for that matter), I always bump up the temp so the yeast can clean up after itself. For a lager, a diacetyl rest.

If you get rid of the least flocculent yeast, what happens toward the end of fermentation? You lose the remaining, most-flocculent yeast to the yeast cake where, it seems to me, the yeast is not going to be particularly effective in cleaning up.

I'd want yeast in suspension during cleanup.

Now, maybe that logic is incorrect, and if so, I look forward to new information about it.

********

I do a very weird starter process. I oxygenate that starter, and add a pinch of yeast nutrient to it. I try to time my starter so I'm pitching it into the wort about 15-18 hours after I begin it. The idea is to have it being very active when it's pitched.

And that's correct: I don't crash it. The whole 1-liter starter goes in there. Even with lagers. And with lagers, I'm pitching that at about 70 degrees into wort that is also about 70 degrees. I'll let it sit there for 5 or 6 hours at that initial temp during which time it's continuing to expand in cell numbers--like a huge stepped-up starter--then I start dropping it down to 50 degrees which is where I do lagers. At least for the first half of fermentation.

So I'm never worried about whether I have more or less flocculant yeast going in there, because it all goes in. It adds a liter to the wort volume, and drops the gravity about a point, depending on OG.

 

[Konadog]

I always had problems using a 2L flask with overflow issues, moved up to a 5L and now never have a problem.

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

My thinking is this: toward the end with a lager (or any beer I brew, for that matter), I always bump up the temp so the yeast can clean up after itself. For a lager, a diacetyl rest.

If you get rid of the least flocculent yeast, what happens toward the end of fermentation? You lose the remaining, most-flocculent yeast to the yeast cake where, it seems to me, the yeast is not going to be particularly effective in cleaning up.

I'd want yeast in suspension during cleanup.

Now, maybe that logic is incorrect, and if so, I look forward to new information about it.

********

I do a very weird starter process. I oxygenate that starter, and add a pinch of yeast nutrient to it. I try to time my starter so I'm pitching it into the wort about 15-18 hours after I begin it. The idea is to have it being very active when it's pitched.

And that's correct: I don't crash it. The whole 1-liter starter goes in there. Even with lagers. And with lagers, I'm pitching that at about 70 degrees into wort that is also about 70 degrees. I'll let it sit there for 5 or 6 hours at that initial temp during which time it's continuing to expand in cell numbers--like a huge stepped-up starter--then I start dropping it down to 50 degrees which is where I do lagers. At least for the first half of fermentation.

So I'm never worried about whether I have more or less flocculant yeast going in there, because it all goes in. It adds a liter to the wort volume, and drops the gravity about a point, depending on OG.

Makes sense

 

[balrog]

What's your process for a starter? I boil DME and RO water in the flask for about 5 minutes, but I always use a drop of Fermcap-S in there so I don't get a boilover. That, of course, limits krausen in the starter, usually resulting in a very thin skim of bubbles at the edges, and maybe a little in the vortex.

I never get a krausen like that, for understandable reasons.

Also, what's the purpose of the paper plate? Spacer to move the flask away from the stir plate? Added support?

I don't use fermcap. Just never bothered. The WY1007 is the only yeast I've had issues with, and after the first time making a WY1007 starter, I put the plate under for the gloop. It can sometimes run down the sides of the jug. Always in the middle of the night or when I'm otherwise not around.