Darkstar Burner 2 Issue...i think

[sborz22]

Just set up my burner today and was very excited to use it. It's been over an hour and my 6 gallon pot of water has yet to reach my strike water temp of 165.

Its cold in Northeast PA, however I still cannot imagine that it should take this long to hit the strike temp with only 6 gallons of water.

I have the propane tank (which was just filled) all the way on. I have the regulator on the Dark Star up all the way.

If this is normal I am going to be super disappointed [emoji17]

 

[day_trippr]

Yeah, something's not right. A bg12 burner should do a lot better than that - like, half that time.
Lacking a picture one can only take a SWAG at the problem, so here's mine: EFP trigger.

The plastic ACME gas coupler nut has a spring-loaded check valve that is intended to prevent a massive tank discharge if a hose separates.
If the Excess Flow Preventer triggers it doesn't completely stop gas flow but severely restricts it.
The EFP can inadvertently trigger if the proper start-up procedure isn't followed - opening the cylinder valve with the regulator already dialed up can be enough.

The recommended way to fire up a propane burner is:
- Close the cylinder valve
- Close the regulator all the way to the stop
- Slowly open the cylinder valve a couple of turns
- Slowly open the regulator

The other possibility is the tank is so cold the propane isn't evaporating fast enough to maintain sufficient flow. If there's major frost on the cylinder that may be what's up...

Cheers!

 

[sborz22]

Yeah, something's not right. A bg12 burner should do a lot better than that - like, half that time.
Lacking a picture one can only take a SWAG at the problem, so here's mine: EFP trigger.

The plastic ACME gas coupler nut has a spring-loaded check valve that is intended to prevent a massive tank discharge if a hose separates.
If the Excess Flow Preventer triggers it doesn't completely stop gas flow but severely restricts it.
The EFP can inadvertently trigger if the proper start-up procedure isn't followed - opening the cylinder valve with the regulator already dialed up can be enough.

The recommended way to fire up a propane burner is:
- Close the cylinder valve
- Close the regulator all the way to the stop
- Slowly open the cylinder valve a couple of turns
- Slowly open the regulator

Cheers!

I really had no idea that not following the steps so closely could have such an impact. I am a big griller and the system seems as simple as a standard home propane grill and therefore did not overly focus on the details of the starting procedure. I am about the do my quick 15 minute boil post mash (kettle souring this bad boy) so I will try to follow the instructions to a tee this time.

Will report back!

Thanks!

 

[day_trippr]

You're working with considerably higher gas volume than your basic 1/2 psi barbecue, and EFPs can be touchy.
You wouldn't be the first person that ran into this - if that's indeed what's going on...

Cheers!

 

[sborz22]

You're working with considerably higher gas volume than your basic 1/2 psi barbecue, and EFPs can be touchy.
You wouldn't be the first person that ran into this - if that's indeed what's going on...

Cheers!

That makes complete sense. Should I light it up after I do the initial turns on both and then continue to open up the regulator and propane tank?

 

[day_trippr]

Light the burner as you open the regulator.
I use spark ignition and have that firing when I open the regulator, and back when I used a BBQ lighter I had that burning right above the burner before I opened the regulator.
Much less drama that way

Cheers!

[edit/ps] The difference between a triggered EFP and not will be blatantly obvious.

 

[sborz22]

Light the burner as you open the regulator.
I use spark ignition and have that firing when I open the regulator, and back when I used a BBQ lighter I had that burning right above the burner before I opened the regulator.
Much less drama that way

Cheers!

[edit/ps] The difference between a triggered EFP and not will be blatantly obvious.

I can't day thank you enough! It turns out that the devil was in the detail...the detail I didn't bother to read.

I followed your instructions and you were 100% correct!

My sleep schedule thanks you for such a quick and helpful response!!!

Extra Cheers to you!

 

[ancientmariner52]

Day_trippr, are you really Hank Hill, dealing in propane and propane accessories?

This is great info, thanks much.

 

[day_trippr]

lol! No, I'm just wicked old and have seen and read lots of things
Happy to have helped, there's nothing more frustrating than a new toy that is behaving badly...

Cheers!

 

[sborz22]

lol! No, I'm just wicked old and have seen and read lots of things
Happy to have helped, there's nothing more frustrating than a new toy that is behaving badly...

Cheers!

You said it! I was standing there shaking my head at this thing wondering what I just spent $50 bucks on

[emoji481]

 

[augiedoggy]

Yeah, something's not right. A bg12 burner should do a lot better than that - like, half that time.
Lacking a picture one can only take a SWAG at the problem, so here's mine: EFP trigger.

The plastic ACME gas coupler nut has a spring-loaded check valve that is intended to prevent a massive tank discharge if a hose separates.
If the Excess Flow Preventer triggers it doesn't completely stop gas flow but severely restricts it.
The EFP can inadvertently trigger if the proper start-up procedure isn't followed - opening the cylinder valve with the regulator already dialed up can be enough.

The recommended way to fire up a propane burner is:
- Close the cylinder valve
- Close the regulator all the way to the stop
- Slowly open the cylinder valve a couple of turns
- Slowly open the regulator

The other possibility is the tank is so cold the propane isn't evaporating fast enough to maintain sufficient flow. If there's major frost on the cylinder that may be what's up...

Cheers!

Damnit! thanks a lot, there goes all the free grills and gas burners I get from all the clueless people that throw them away after having this issue..
Next youll be warning people that plug thier air conditioners and fridges in right after theyve been stored on thier side and all the folks who buy LED tvs and dont turn the backlight setting down from display mode used to make them look good in the store which causes premature led failure and a black screen...

On a serious note, I spent quite a bit of time discovering this myself back when the propane tank fittings changed and this feature was added... Many people make the mistake of turning the tank on while the grill or burner is turned on and a weak flame is the result. I once had a conversation with a home depot employee about all the grills that get returned because of this... Guys dont often read manuals so they need to put a huge tap on the end of the tank fitting warning of this.

 

[augiedoggy]

I really had no idea that not following the steps so closely could have such an impact. I am a big griller and the system seems as simple as a standard home propane grill and therefore did not overly focus on the details of the starting procedure. I am about the do my quick 15 minute boil post mash (kettle souring this bad boy) so I will try to follow the instructions to a tee this time.

Will report back!

Thanks!

This same issue happens on regular grills all the time... if you have the valves on the grill open before turning on the tank gas. the grill still works with a weaker flame but its less noticable.

theres a plastic ball kind of like a shop vac that cuts and restricts flow if the rush out is too great when its opened.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Really glad I checked this thread out. I've never had this happen, but it's yet another in a list of pitfalls I've learned about and now know how to avoid.

Gotta love this place...

 

[bmd2k1]

So how do u like the Darkstar so far? Need a burner & have been considering it.

 

[sborz22]

So how do u like the Darkstar so far? Need a burner & have been considering it.

When used correctly, it is fantastic! For the price and utility I am more than happy with my purchase.

 

[Nebraskan]

deleted

 

[augiedoggy]

^ I for one would not recommend using whats likely such a large inefficient (combustion wise) carbon monoxide creating burner indoors.. Its a very bad idea.
This reminds me of all the reports up in this area who die or get very sick every time the power goes out in the winter because they try to run a generator indoors.

 

[Nebraskan]

deleted

 

[Horseflesh]

Your IR thermometer will not read that shiny foil correctly unless it has an adjustable emissivity setting.

http://www.thermoworks.com/infrared_tips_what_is_emissivity

 

[augiedoggy]

It's only carbon monoxide when there is little oxygen. What's the difference if I run both burners on the stove at 10,000 BTU, or this Dark Star at 18-20,000 BTU for the pot? Both are propane.


View attachment 549354 View attachment 549356

The very big difference is in general, ones designed to be used indoors and to burn cleaner with more efficient combustion and the other is designed to make more heat in a driveway with no regard to such things.. basically the same reason you arent supposed to use a gas bbq grill indoors. they produse a lot more carbon monoxide than the flame on an oven or stove (which is often vented with a fan anyway)

The indoor vent free firplaces and heaters (I have four of them in my very old and drafty home) do have drawbacks too.. For one you cant burn scented candles or even use household cleaners without the fireplace burning the airborne fumes which leaves soot or can make you sick and can also make the burner contaminated effecting the efficiency which it burns which does cause them to create more carbon monoxide .. This is why they are now banned in some states. They are also technically supposed to be vented by leaving a window open a crack or if your house is not insulated like mine the drafts coming through the baseplate and plug outlets help... I still get sick feeling sometimes if its really cold out and im running the fireplace in the livingroom all day. The same feeling I would sometimes get when tuning my car in the garage with the garage door wide open.

on a side note... when I was a kid we did use a kerosene heater to help heat our house for a few years when money was tight.. I hate them to this day... and we had a cracked heat exchanger on our old corner unit gas space heater give us all CM poisoning and bloody noses in our sleep until my father figured out something was wrong. (It DID kill my pet bird). So if one little crack in a gas burner heat exchanger can leak so much CM why would you think any outdoor turkey fryer burner would be fine for indoor use?

 

[kh54s10]

If you are using a Dark Star indoors and have not killed yourself or made yourself sick you are just lucky. It is creating carbon monoxide. The range was designed for use indoors, the burner was not.

I don't care what the BTU's are, don't do it. It is not safe.

 

[The_Bishop]

Running that thing indoors is both a great way to risk burning down your house *and* killing yourself with CO poisoning. Unless you have a CO meter in the room with you to prove otherwise, I will guarantee that you are in an environment that is far too high in CO. Carbon Monoxide poisoning is a cumulative effect, and it doesn't take much in the air to slowly add up in your bloodstream.



In other words: Kids, don't listen to this guy as running outdoor-only appliances inside your home is a terrible idea.

 

[ancientmariner52]

People, there is no need for controversy here. This is easily settled. Nebraskan, would you please contact your local fire marshal and your insurance company? I'm sure we'd all like to hear their views on this topic.

 

[Nebraskan]

Your IR thermometer will not read that shiny foil correctly unless it has an adjustable emissivity setting.

http://www.thermoworks.com/infrared_tips_what_is_emissivity

The dot is on the leg, not the aluminum foil.

 

[Horseflesh]

Cool, didn't see that.

 

[Nebraskan]

. basically the same reason you arent supposed to use a gas bbq grill indoors. they produse a lot more carbon monoxide than the flame on an oven or stove (which is often vented with a fan anyway)

BBQ grill indoors? I am sure the smoke from the cooking would drive you out of the house long before any carbon monoxide gas. Our range is LP gas, and we heat with propane (rural) and the kitchen stove is not vented, nor do I think it's is any more "tuned" (probably less so) than the Dark-Star burner. In fact, if you adjust the oxygen metering to get a proper burn with just a little yellow tip you really have adjusted it to be a better gas burn than my stove that burns mostly a blue flame. Stove not vented, and neither is the oven. So cooking a roast for all afternoon the burner goes on and off but keeps a steady temp. Cooking 2 big pots of water on the top results in double the amount of gas being burned, and has been our way of cooking for years. My mom cooked on an old gas range that neither was vented, nor had a pilot light. She always lit the stove and oven with a match. Only a CO meter will really tell the tale.

 

[augiedoggy]

BBQ grill indoors? I am sure the smoke from the cooking would drive you out of the house long before any carbon monoxide gas. Our range is LP gas, and we heat with propane (rural) and the kitchen stove is not vented, nor do I think it's is any more "tuned" (probably less so) than the Dark-Star burner. In fact, if you adjust the oxygen metering to get a proper burn with just a little yellow tip you really have adjusted it to be a better gas burn than my stove that burns mostly a blue flame. Stove not vented, and neither is the oven. So cooking a roast for all afternoon the burner goes on and off but keeps a steady temp. Cooking 2 big pots of water on the top results in double the amount of gas being burned, and has been our way of cooking for years. My mom cooked on an old gas range that neither was vented, nor had a pilot light. She always lit the stove and oven with a match. Only a CO meter will really tell the tale.

my stove is not vented either (many older homes arent) same deal with an ancient stove in our house with a stovepipe coming off of it growing up (and im only 39) I replaced both of those old side by side furnace/stove setups in the duplex I grew up in now and the new stoves are alos not vented mainly because they are on an inside wall.

That doesnt change the fact that you do not seem to understand the important fact that some burners are designed and approved for cleaner emissions and some are not... Your comparing a gas burner designed to be used indoors with something that's simply NOT.

Its just like the difference between a regular gas firplace insert designed to be operated in an open flue chimney fireplace with or without sealed glass between the flame and room vs a ventless gas fireplace insert. They can be the same amount of btu's but the amount of carbon monoxide created by the regular gas log set can be much higher. again, if this stuff didnt matter people wouldnt get carbon monoxide poisoning when the heat exchangers on their furnace cracked or leaked right?

You dont need to take my or all the others who commented here s word for it just place an anonymous call to your local fire-chief or go to a store that sells fireplaces and ask them.. There should actually be a big warning on the darkstar burners tag stating not to use it indoors.. There is a reason for this.

Ive researched this quite a bit when I bought and installed my ventless fireplaces..

 

[kh54s10]

Nebraskan, we will be watching the obits. Expect to see your name soon.

Also don't let your insurance company know you are doing this. Your policy would be cancelled so fast that...

Also don't let you local fire marshal know or you might get an expensive citation.

I think it is agreed by everyone that it is a very bad idea. I used propane burners on an inclosed porch. One day the wind was strong so I closed all the windows on one side. That still left 4 windows and a door open. I got a carbon monoxide headache that day. I now make sure that I have some cross ventilation.

 

[Nebraskan]

Thanks, @augiedoggy for your replies. Got me doing some research. Found these two links worth a read for you and anyone, really: https://www.perfectforhome.com/gas-ranges-produce-carbon-monoxide/ and here: https://carbonmonoxidemyths.com/f-a-q/ Even what seems like " better - designed for" burners on gas ranges, are not. They produce CO just like any other burning material. The key thing for me was finding out that orange tip or red tip on the flame actually is not as good as just a blue flame, and that ALL gas ranges, whether my cook stove, or this "Dark-Star" produce CO increasingly as the flames touch metal. The Dark-Star, however, is more removed form the bottom of the pan than is my gas burners on my Sears/Kenmore gas range.

For what it's worth, I open the kitchen window and side hall door windows to allow fresh air to enter our home as I cooked my wort for 1 hour. Time is also a factor as the more time, the more accumulation of burned air occurs, if not enough fresh air is present. Ovens (mine is 16,000 BTU) also notorious for producing CO, and they recommend opening kitchen windows for long term oven use, such as cooking turkeys, etc. A good CO monitor would be very useful, regardless. Like I said earlier, I can use 2 pots on 2 burners to heat my wort on my kitchen stove(gas) but takes a longer period to get to the boil stage, but even at that they produce CO during the 1 hour boiling stage. I also heat water on the kitchen range to use for my mash, and sparging. Then there is usually about a 2 hour period of no cooking at all while the mash converts.

 

[augiedoggy]

Ive read most of that before as well but flame color and contact are not always the only factors, For example have you ever seen a ventless fireplace with an only blue flame? most people wouldnt buy them so they designed them to have an orange flame and still burn clean. Also the article you linked does state that oven and range burners are special and designed for indoor (its more the the air fuel mix which accomplished by special sized orafices ) . They can only produce up to 80ppm of co /mo. no such standards or testing is done for turkey fryer burners and the dark star is huge burner.

I agree to the detectors I also own 4 carbon monoxide detectors but should replace 2 of them since they are only good for a limited time.