Dark grains: late mash addition

[mlallier]

Hello,

I will brew my first stout (oatmeal stout) this week and I plan to introduce the roasted grains (8% of the malt bill, chocolate malt and roasted barley, with a bit of carafe II and carafe III special) late in the mash (last 20 mins of a 60 mins mash) to make sure I produce a smooth beer without too much astringency and tannins.

Now, should I adjust my water as if I was introducing these grains from the start of the mash or do no adjustments other than I would normally do for the other grains?

THX!

 

[porterpounder]

If you introduce the dark grains late it may not reduce the malt astringency. How much roasted barley you use will affect that the most. If your sparge technique raises the bed pH to the point of tannin extraction it could give you astingency even without the dark grains, so start with the process, manage your pH, and work back from that.

 

[kanzimonson]

Since it's your first stout, how about brewing a classic trusted recipe with standard procedure? Then you'll have a reasonable baseline from which to judge your beer. It's very possible you'll produce a delicious beer using your proposed technique, but you won't really know if it's specifically from the late mash addition or countless other factors. Remember, nearly all pro breweries out there making a stout mash their roasted grains along with everything else.

 

[chickypad]

You may want to consider adding them at the start of the sparge. Gordon Strong advocates that technique as a way to reduce harshness without having to do a lot of adjustments to get your mash pH right. He talks about this and also separately steeping or cold steeping roasted grains in his book. Here is a summary of the techniques. The podcast lilnked there doesn't go into it too much, around the 22:00 mark he starts talking about water and mash pH. He mentions that he builds up from RO water and tends not to mash dark roasted grains.

 

[azazel1024]

It is less of a late addition reducing astringency. If you want that, add them "cold", in the 130F range probably for 20 minutes to extract the color and any sugars that are present, pull it out and then increase to conversion mash temperature and mash in the regular grains.

At least I think that is the "approved cold steeping" technique.

 

[hanuswalrus]

Midnight wheat is a malt similar to roasted barley that, from my experience, gives a nice roasted flavor without any of the astringency. I used it in my last oatmeal stout and it turned out great.

 

[kanzimonson]

So I heard Jamil bashing the cold steeping technique for a couple reasons:

1) Sure, you cold steep the grains, of course you're going to get less astringency... because you also get less extraction.
2) Either way, you're still boiling the wort for 60 minutes.
3) Again, what are pro breweries doing?

 

[chickypad]

Actually one of the techniques talked about in the book is cold steeping and just adding to the last few minutes of the boil. There's lots of ways to skin a cat with brewing. It's almost SOP around here when someone asks advice how to do something half the responses are "don't do it that way". Sometimes that's good advice, sometimes it's opinion or personal preference. In this case we're talking about some fairly well known techniques purported by at least one very reputable source. I don't really buy the pro brewer argument, there's lots of things that may or may not transfer well to the home brew environment. I'm sure most pro breweries have very good pH control.

Anyway, not trying to start an argument, just point the OP in some directions to look if he/she wants to explore techniques.

 

[kanzimonson]

Let's fight!

I do want to emphasize that whatever you do, take some notes, and don't change too many variables the next time you do something.

 

[Bowtiebrewery]

Since it's your first stout, how about brewing a classic trusted recipe with standard procedure? Then you'll have a reasonable baseline from which to judge your beer. It's very possible you'll produce a delicious beer using your proposed technique, but you won't really know if it's specifically from the late mash addition or countless other factors. Remember, nearly all pro breweries out there making a stout mash their roasted grains along with everything else.

Agree with this... Start with a simple trusted recipe. And brew it and see how it turns out...

I did actually have a friends breakfast stout that he added a ton of whilpool hops additions and man its a great stout... Maybe try that instead of going with changing any grains around.

 

[mlallier]

Yes, I think the best thing to do is to try it once first and taste the result. Especially since I have a portion of Carafa III Special in there.

Thanks so much guys for your input!

 

[Twinkeelfool]

I much prefer adding dark malts late in the mash. Standard practice for me now. I brew lots of mild and porter.

Try it and see

 

[LandoLincoln]

Hello,

I will brew my first stout (oatmeal stout) this week and I plan to introduce the roasted grains (8% of the malt bill, chocolate malt and roasted barley, with a bit of carafe II and carafe III special) late in the mash (last 20 mins of a 60 mins mash) to make sure I produce a smooth beer without too much astringency and tannins.

Now, should I adjust my water as if I was introducing these grains from the start of the mash or do no adjustments other than I would normally do for the other grains?

THX!

Yes, it's going to screw up your pH and your efficiency will suffer. At least that's my experience.

 

[didinho]

I'm a big fan of late mash addiction in dark beers (IPA, Stout, Porter..)
No specific PH adjustment in the mash, and no harshness at all.
I add dark grains 30 minutes before the end of the mash (that is usually 70-80 minutes long)

 

[Master]

Kind of ressurecting here.

Brewing a Stout Thursday or Friday.

6 gal into fermenter
5.5 pounds Maris Otter
2 pound flaked barley

1 pound roasted barley

1 pound black patent

90 minute 148F mash. HERMS system
168 Mashout with about a 20 min ramp time from 148.
Current plan is Maris Otter and the Flaked into water treated as if it's the only ingredients
RO Water treated to:
Ca-47, Mg-10, Na-0, SO4-76, Cl-75

At 60 minutes, add the Black Patent

At 90 minutes, add the Roasted Barley

Will be fly sparged with ~6pH RO water (just a drop of lactic added)

Anyone try something like this?

 

[dwhite60]

I think I'd use about 2/3 lb of the roasted barley and 1/3 lb of the black patent. If you want dark and roasty you'll certainly get it with just that. I never use more than a half pound of roast barley in a 2.5 gallon batch, (my standard).

All the Best,
D. White