Dark, Cloudy, Malty, IPA. What happened?

[Rob2010SS]

Hey guys/gals. Sorry, this is going to be long winded, but looking for some guidance here. This is my first brew ever and it didn't turn out quite as I thought it would so I'm hoping for some pointers.

I did the NB Grapefruit Pulpin and I bottled it about 8 days ago. I tried one last night to see where it was at in regards to carbonation and it's actually carbonating quite well! I can honestly say that is the one aspect of the beer that I'm REALLY happy with.

I followed the recipe to a T in regards to the boil and the dry hopping. Where I didn't quite follow the recipe is the length of time in the primary. I did actually do a secondary to do the dry hopping/grapefruit peel. It was in the primary for 10 days. I then transferred to secondary with the dry hops and the grapefruit peel for 5 days. When I took the OG reading it was 1.064 and FG was 1.012, which told me that fermentation was complete, so I felt I was ok to transfer to secondary.

So here's my problems with the beer...
1. It's very cloudy (See pics). Even on the deck with the sun behind it, it's very cloudy. I did drink a Pseudo Sue right after it and that was also cloudy, so that made me feel a bit better about it. I just feel like mine is excessively cloudy.
2. It's very dark. For an IPA, I feel it's a heck of a lot darker than it should be. (See the 3rd picture looking down at it from an angle - that's about the color it is just sitting in a room). Is this something that can be corrected by doing LME later in the boil instead of boiling for the full 60 min? I followed the recipe exactly in regards to the LME additions. (Recipe attached)
3. It has a very heavy malt flavor in the background. Don't get me wrong, the beer is good and I will drink the heck out of it, but it tastes more like a.... some sort of bitter irish red ale maybe? The malt flavor in the background is more prominent than the hop flavor, although as it warms a bit, you get quite a bit of bitter in the back of your throat.

Sorry for the long winded post. Just not sure what happened with this one that would have caused these things.

Thanks.

View attachment Grapefruit-Pulpin.pdf

 

[mboardman]

Color looks spot on to me. Maybe its the monitor or your camera or whatever....however, Ive sampled plenty of IPA out in the commercial world, and the color isnt out of the ordinary....

Im also not seeing much cloudiness in the photos, again perhaps the camera not picking it up. Even if I did, I would again say Ive seen that in plenty of fruity IPAs out there....

If it tastes good, heck, enjoy it.

 

[triethylborane]

Agree with @mboardman, color looks fine. Copper.

 

[fatnhappy]

A lot of IPAs are more copper/amber in color. If it was a kit, it could of had old hops in it. That may explain the lack you said it has. For a beginner, that looks like a fine beer. Be proud

 

[Rob2010SS]

I appreciate the info guys. How would you explain that "maltiness" that I was trying to describe?

 

[triethylborane]

Gonna agree with @fatnhappy, probably some old hops or perhaps not enough to suit your tastes. I tend to taste the malt backbone of an IPA before the hops, which makes sense as IPAs tend to be "malt-forward." Maybe it is a flavor other than malty?

 

[Rob2010SS]

Yeah, you could have a point triethylborane.... I'm not sure how else to describe the taste. I suppose.... It could almost be a yeasty/bready taste. That might be a bit of a reach though, not sure if I'd go so far as to call it that just yet.

 

[Sailingeric]

I would more worried about what is going on with your gravity at your house .

What malt did you use? I have an IPA on tap that came out a little darker than I expected but I also my grain bill was 7% vienna malt. Still mighty tasty.

 

[Rob2010SS]

I would more worried about what is going on with your gravity at your house .

What malt did you use? I have an IPA on tap that came out a little darker than I expected but I also my grain bill was 7% vienna malt. Still mighty tasty.

Ha, yeah the pics came out the wrong orientation.

The malts that I used were the LME that came with the kit - 9.15 lbs total of the Gold malt syrup (Maillard Malts). It had specialty grains as well - .5lbs Cara 20 and .25lbs Caramel 20. PDF of recipe is below the last pic.

Is it possible to have too hot of a boil going when adding extract? I know to pull the kettle off the heat when adding it but during the rest of the boil, is it possible to still burn the LME causing it to be darker?

 

[Rob2010SS]

I would more worried about what is going on with your gravity at your house .

What malt did you use? I have an IPA on tap that came out a little darker than I expected but I also my grain bill was 7% vienna malt. Still mighty tasty.

(continuation of last post)

Which in turn would add to that off flavor that I'm trying to describe as "malty"?

 

[Sailingeric]

If you are doing extract, I would add about 1/3 for the boil and rest at flameout to avoid darkening. But if it taste good, enjoy and adjust for next time.

 

[triethylborane]

When I extract brewed, my beers always came out dark if I did a full hour boil with the full amount of extract, even with the lightest extracts as gold/pilsen .

 

[Rob2010SS]

Thanks sailingEric.

What about the issue with the cloudiness? No one really thinks that's an issue?

 

[h22lude]

Darkness is definitely from extract. Boiling all extract for the full 60 minutes will create a darker beer. As others have said, save a good amount of extract for late addition to lower the color.

For cloudiness, it is normal. Doesn't affect flavor.

Good article on haze

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/beer-haze-cloudy-homebrew/

 

[Sailingeric]

Thanks sailingEric.

What about the issue with the cloudiness? No one really thinks that's an issue?

Time will clear most beers.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Time will clear most beers.

On average, how long does that take once in bottles?

 

[h22lude]

Time will clear most beers.

If it is yeast related, yes. If it is not, no. Time will not clear chill haze.

On average, how long does that take once in bottles?

My guess, this haze won't clear out.

Do you have any bottles at room temp? Pour one in a glass. If it is clear, you have chill haze. Once you have chill haze, the only way to clear it is with filtration.

 

[Rob2010SS]

If it is yeast related, yes. If it is not, no. Time will not clear chill haze.



My guess, this haze won't clear out.

Do you have any bottles at room temp? Pour one in a glass. If it is clear, you have chill haze. Once you have chill haze, the only way to clear it is with filtration.

As everything with brewing Im sure there's multiple causes but what would be a future correction to prevent chill haze?

 

[triethylborane]

I add some irish moss. Works great.

Other tips from an old BYO article:

https://byo.com/malt/item/486-conquer-chill-haze

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Looks tasty to me. As others have noted, it's best to use the same ratio of extract as water for the boil. For example, if you're only using 1/3 of the total water in a partial boil, only use 1/3 of the extract until the last few minutes of the boil. At that point, add the rest of the extract. That will help reduce the darkness.

For the maltiness, a couple things spring to mind. First, as noted the hops may have been marginal. Were they vacuum sealed? Did you keep them in the fridge? Also, you said you had a pseudo sue afterwards...if you're used to heavily dry hopped beers like sue, pulpin will not have nearly enough hop character in comparison.

I'm not familiar with the kit, but what is the hop schedule like? Is the beer more bitter than you expected? If there are late boil hop additions or steep additions, if you don't chill quickly enough those additions can act more like earlier boil additions where you get more bitterness and less flavor/aroma from them.

For clarity, whirlfloc or irish moss is a good idea. If haze really bothers you, you can also use gelatin and cold crash to mitigate haze. There's lots of great info here on that. I brew mostly new england IPAs (where haze is acceptable) and super dark stouts or porters, so I don't worry much about it.

If you enjoy the beer, that's an extremely successful first brew. My first extract brew I really had to force myself to drink those bottles. Congrats on a successful first brew. Keep up the good work, refine, improve and enjoy.

 

[Miraculix]

Ha, yeah the pics came out the wrong orientation.

The malts that I used were the LME that came with the kit - 9.15 lbs total of the Gold malt syrup (Maillard Malts). It had specialty grains as well - .5lbs Cara 20 and .25lbs Caramel 20. PDF of recipe is below the last pic.

Is it possible to have too hot of a boil going when adding extract? I know to pull the kettle off the heat when adding it but during the rest of the boil, is it possible to still burn the LME causing it to be darker?

I am far away of being an expert, but everywhere I read something about extract based recipe optimisation, they all said that the boil should be as quick as possible. Otherwise the extract would get darker and also change in taste... Only did an extract once and did not like it that much.

See for example here in one of the last paragraphs:

http://www.love2brew.com/Articles.asp?ID=557

 

[dyqik]

In addition to the things mentioned above (which are probably more important for the taste balance), the other element in perception of hops and maltiness is the water. Did you use tap water, and do you know what the mineral content of your water is?

Googling, it looks like McHenry, IL tap water is rated as "very hard", which suggests high mineral content, and means that the balance of minerals could push the beer towards tasting malty/fuller and somewhat subduing the hops, or it could push in the direction of tasting dry and emphasizing the hops. Or it could do both in a NEIPA style if it's high in both sulfate and chloride.

 

[Rob2010SS]

In addition to the things mentioned above (which are probably more important for the taste balance), the other element in perception of hops and maltiness is the water. Did you use tap water, and do you know what the mineral content of your water is?

Googling, it looks like McHenry, IL tap water is rated as "very hard", which suggests high mineral content, and means that the balance of minerals could push the beer towards tasting malty/fuller and somewhat subduing the hops, or it could push in the direction of tasting dry and emphasizing the hops. Or it could do both in a NEIPA style if it's high in both sulfate and chloride.

Dyqik, I have not had an analysis done on our water. However, we do have a pretty extensive water softening system in our house. I did use tap water but it was tap water that was ran through that softening system.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Looks tasty to me. As others have noted, it's best to use the same ratio of extract as water for the boil. For example, if you're only using 1/3 of the total water in a partial boil, only use 1/3 of the extract until the last few minutes of the boil. At that point, add the rest of the extract. That will help reduce the darkness.

For the maltiness, a couple things spring to mind. First, as noted the hops may have been marginal. Were they vacuum sealed? Did you keep them in the fridge? Also, you said you had a pseudo sue afterwards...if you're used to heavily dry hopped beers like sue, pulpin will not have nearly enough hop character in comparison.

I'm not familiar with the kit, but what is the hop schedule like? Is the beer more bitter than you expected? If there are late boil hop additions or steep additions, if you don't chill quickly enough those additions can act more like earlier boil additions where you get more bitterness and less flavor/aroma from them.

For clarity, whirlfloc or irish moss is a good idea. If haze really bothers you, you can also use gelatin and cold crash to mitigate haze. There's lots of great info here on that. I brew mostly new england IPAs (where haze is acceptable) and super dark stouts or porters, so I don't worry much about it.

If you enjoy the beer, that's an extremely successful first brew. My first extract brew I really had to force myself to drink those bottles. Congrats on a successful first brew. Keep up the good work, refine, improve and enjoy.

Thanks for the feedback Hwk. I think your first point is dead on. That is something I'm going to do from now on - only 1/3 of the extract at the front, the rest at the end of the boil.

As far as the hops being vacuum sealed, they definitely were NOT vacuum sealed. They were in the typical Hoptimus Rex packaging. They were sealed packages but there was definitely air in them. I've attached a pic of the hop schedule for this recipe. Seems like a good amount of hops to me, but not sure if that's a lot or not. Additionally, I did NOT keep them in the fridge. I'm assuming that hops should be kept in the fridge if not being used for periods of time? They're definitely not kept in the fridge at NB either. They're in boxes on a shelf in the store and who knows how long they sit there for.

As for chilling the wort after the boil, it took about 30-35 min in the ice bath in the sink to get it down to the mid 70's. I plan on getting a wort chiller before my next brew to cut this time in half.

For me, the haze doesn't bother me. However I plan to share with people who don't typically see that kind of haze. So it's a perception thing. For me and my wife, it doesn't bother us at all.

As I said in the beginning, I actually enjoy it. It really does remind me of an irish red style with some grapefruit flavor and smell. It's just not what I was aiming for. I want to be able to say "I'm going to brew an IPA" and actually get an IPA. I have definitely learned a lot after this brew that I plan to integrate in the next batch. Thank you very much for the info.

 

[Rob2010SS]

I am far away of being an expert, but everywhere I read something about extract based recipe optimisation, they all said that the boil should be as quick as possible. Otherwise the extract would get darker and also change in taste... Only did an extract once and did not like it that much.

See for example here in one of the last paragraphs:

http://www.love2brew.com/Articles.asp?ID=557

Thanks for the info Miraculix. That link is a good read, I appreciate it.

 

[dyqik]

Dyqik, I have not had an analysis done on our water. However, we do have a pretty extensive water softening system in our house. I did use tap water but it was tap water that was ran through that softening system.

OK, one thing to be wary of is that softening systems can add a fair amount of sodium or potassium to the water (to replace the calcium that defines hardness). AIUI that leaves carbonate, sulfate and chloride in place (although I don't know enough about softening systems), and the sodium and potassium will affect the taste as well (adding a salty taste, or just overenhancing flavor generally). Generally it's recommended to never brew with softened water, because of the sodium/potassium added, while you want calcium in your brewing water.

This probably isn't the first thing to fix though, but it's worth getting analyses of both your unsoftened and softened water.

 

[Rob2010SS]

OK, one thing to be wary of is that softening systems can add a fair amount of sodium or potassium to the water (to replace the calcium that defines hardness). AIUI that leaves sulfate and chloride in place (although I don't know enough about softening systems), and the sodium and potassium will affect the taste as well (adding a salty taste). Generally it's recommended to never brew with softened water, because of the sodium/potassium added.

This probably isn't the first thing to fix though, but it's worth getting analyses of both your unsoftened and softened water.

Interesting. So to take out the variability of my water, on brew days would it be acceptable to go to the store and buy 5 or 6 gallons of distilled water and use that instead?

 

[dyqik]

Distilled or RO is good with extract brewing, as the extract will have the salts needed for yeast health. Even just bottled "spring" water will likely be an improvement.

For things like IPA you might want to add a bit of calcium sulfate/gypsum to enhance dryness and emphasize the hops, but that's probably a bit further down the road.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Distilled or RO is good with extract brewing, as the extract will have the salts needed for yeast health. Even just bottled "spring" water will likely be an improvement.

For things like IPA you might want to add a bit of calcium sulfate/gypsum to enhance dryness and emphasize the hops, but that's probably a bit further down the road.

Thanks for the info! I'll definitely give that a go on the next round.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Thanks for the feedback Hwk. I think your first point is dead on. That is something I'm going to do from now on - only 1/3 of the extract at the front, the rest at the end of the boil.

As far as the hops being vacuum sealed, they definitely were NOT vacuum sealed. They were in the typical Hoptimus Rex packaging. They were sealed packages but there was definitely air in them. I've attached a pic of the hop schedule for this recipe. Seems like a good amount of hops to me, but not sure if that's a lot or not. Additionally, I did NOT keep them in the fridge. I'm assuming that hops should be kept in the fridge if not being used for periods of time? They're definitely not kept in the fridge at NB either. They're in boxes on a shelf in the store and who knows how long they sit there for.

As for chilling the wort after the boil, it took about 30-35 min in the ice bath in the sink to get it down to the mid 70's. I plan on getting a wort chiller before my next brew to cut this time in half.

For me, the haze doesn't bother me. However I plan to share with people who don't typically see that kind of haze. So it's a perception thing. For me and my wife, it doesn't bother us at all.

As I said in the beginning, I actually enjoy it. It really does remind me of an irish red style with some grapefruit flavor and smell. It's just not what I was aiming for. I want to be able to say "I'm going to brew an IPA" and actually get an IPA. I have definitely learned a lot after this brew that I plan to integrate in the next batch. Thank you very much for the info.

For kits, you're going to get what you get and I'm just racking a NB Bourbon Barrel Porter to the secondary tonight. The hops did have a nice aroma to them when I opened them, but I did keep them in the fridge until I used 'em . In general, I try to buy my hops from Yakima Valley or...can't remember the other one...because they come vacuum sealed. I store 'em in the fridge until opened, then vacuum seal and freeze after being opened. Note that right now I use the "poor man's vacuum seal" where I seal 90% of the way on a ziplock, then suck as much air out as I can and quickly seal it. A true vacuum sealer is on my shopping list.

Water....I see you're already on board with RO...just a note that I buy mine at the local HyVee grocery store. 10 gallons for an all grain batch is about $3 I think. Well worth it to start with a known commodity. Just use the RO for extract. If you move to AG, you can add minerals to get the exact water profile you want. It really makes a massive difference in the beer.

Finally, with that hop bill, I would expect a solid bitter profile, and marginal hop flavor aroma. This may be just me, but with all the dry hopped IPA's out these days, anything that stops at WP additions, unless they're sizable, will seem like it lacks hoppiness.

Let us know how your next batch turns out.

Oh, one other thing: don't be afraid to augment the kits as you get more familiar with the recipes. You can always buy and add extra hops if that's what your tastebuds want. I added additional ingredients to the BBP (flaked oats, flaked barley and a completely different yeast)

Also, if you have a local HBS, you can grab the NB recipes on their website and build up your own kit locally. You might have better luck with recipes here and on Brewer's friend.