critique my technique (low efficiency)

[physast]

So I have completed my 3rd All Grain brew day, which has produced so far great beer, but less than optimal efficiency. My latest was an rogue chocolate stout clone, a recipe I found here on home brew talk. I have a thread about this recipe and why my stout turned out medium brown rather than ebony here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/rogue-chocolate-stout-clone-attempt-216826/

This thread somewhat of a repeat I suppose is to try and figure out why my efficiency is so low. Below are the steps I use to brew my all grain beers.

1. Mash all grains using 1.3qrts/1lbs grain @ 150 - 155 F for 60 min
a. Stir once at the beginning of the mash to make sure no dry clumps exists.
2. Sparge with enough water @ 175 to make about 6 gallons of wort.
a. stir again after adding sparge water
3. recirculate a few times to catch loose debris in the grain bed
4. empty wort into two pots that I use for boiling (stove top boil)
a. Take gravity reading of final running's
5. Add all hops using hop schedule during boil
6. cool to about 80 F and add to fermenter
7. take gravity reading
8. pitch yeast
9. drink a beer and wonder why my efficiency is so bad.

This method gives me about 56% efficiency using promash calculations. Just for reference the recipe is below given from a promash report.

A ProMash Brewing Session Report
--------------------------------

Brewing Date: Sunday January 09, 2011
Recipe: Chocolate Stout (AG)

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.00 Wort Size (Gal): 6.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 12.63
Anticipated OG: 1.059 Plato: 14.51
Anticipated SRM: 25.4
Anticipated IBU: 38.8
Brewhouse Efficiency: 66 %
Wort Boil Time: 70 Minutes

Actual OG: 1.048 Plato: 11.91

Actual Mash System Efficiency: 56 %

Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
4.0 0.50 lbs. Crystal 120L Great Britain 1.033 120
87.1 11.00 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row) America 1.036 2
4.0 0.50 lbs. Chocolate Malt America 1.029 350
4.0 0.50 lbs. Flaked Oats America 1.033 2
1.0 0.13 lbs. Roasted Barley America 1.028 450

Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.00 oz. Cascade Pellet 5.75 29.3 70 min.
1.00 oz. Cascade Pellet 5.75 9.5 20 min.
1.00 oz. Cascade Pellet 5.75 0.0 0 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.50 Oz Cocoa Powder Other 0 Min.(boil)


Yeast
-----

WYeast 1056 Amercan Ale/Chico

 

[Walker]

Below are the steps I use to brew my all grain beers.

1. Mash all grains using 1.3qrts/1lbs grain @ 150 - 155 F for 60 min
a. Stir once at the beginning of the mash to make sure no dry clumps exists.
2. Sparge with enough water @ 175 to make about 6 gallons of wort.
a. stir again after adding sparge water
3. recirculate a few times to catch loose debris in the grain bed
4. empty wort into two pots that I use for boiling (stove top boil)
a. Take gravity reading of final running's

After step 1.a, are you draining wort to a kettle before moving to step 2?

You never mention recirculation or emptying wort until steps 3 and 4.

 

[jer204]

Could be the crush? I had to do a lot of tweeking before getting it right.

 

[mattd2]

After step 1.a, are you draining wort to a kettle before moving to step 2?

You never mention recirculation or emptying wort until steps 3 and 4.

Thats what I was thinking too Walker. Definatly need to drain the first runnings before sparging. But even so this shouldn't drop efficiency down into the 50s, should it?

 

[Walker]

Thats what I was thinking too Walker. Definatly need to drain the first runnings before sparging. But even so this shouldn't drop efficiency down into the 50s, should it?

I don't know. I've never done it.

 

[johndeere]

i had the same problem and i was just getting sloppy with the process. Luckily I took great notes during and after to correct my problems.

I underestimated how important it was to...
Stir. Stir the mash vigorously at dough in, and halfway into mash. Stir real well again for sparging to make sure your getting all those sugars rinsed free.

Temps. Sparge temp should be hot enough to raise your grain bed up above 160ish, but not above/near 170.

Those two things wrecked my efficiency. I went from 80% to 74% to 60%, then back to 75% after I took a long look at what I was doing. I just make sure that I record everything I do in my process. I bring all my previous notes out with me, and I constantly learn from my experiences. Just take excellent notes and keep seeking information... you'll figure it out. This isn't brain surgery.

 

[pkeeler]

Do you check your pH at any point or have you had your water tested and used any of the RA calculators? This becomes more important when you are brewing at the extreme ends of the SRM scale, like a stout. When I hit the correct pH, my efficiency goes from 70% to 80%.

You could collect 6.5 gal. if your runnings are still over 1.010.

Your sparge water is too hot. Probably not effecting your efficiency, but it should be 170 or less to avoid extracting tannins.

 

[mattd2]

Your sparge water is too hot. Probably not effecting your efficiency, but it should be 170 or less to avoid extracting tannins.

175 shouldn't be a problem as when it is mixed with the grain it will drop the overall temperature to under 170.

 

[physast]

After step 1.a, are you draining wort to a kettle before moving to step 2?

You never mention recirculation or emptying wort until steps 3 and 4.

I have done both methods of first draining the wort into the kettle before sparge and also just sparging with the original strike in the mash.

I do recirculation before draining into kettle. This is done before emptying the first runnings into the kettle (except this last time because I sparged while the strike was still in the mash).

Stir. Stir the mash vigorously at dough in, and halfway into mash. Stir real well again for sparging to make sure your getting all those sugars rinsed free.

I do tend to stir the mash at the beginning of the mash, but I could always do it some more. I have never stirred the mash half way through, only during the sparge.

Temps. Sparge temp should be hot enough to raise your grain bed up above 160ish, but not above/near 170.

Next time I will heat my sparge to only 165ish.

 

[physast]

Do you check your pH at any point or have you had your water tested and used any of the RA calculators? This becomes more important when you are brewing at the extreme ends of the SRM scale, like a stout. When I hit the correct pH, my efficiency goes from 70% to 80%.

You could collect 6.5 gal. if your runnings are still over 1.010.

Your sparge water is too hot. Probably not effecting your efficiency, but it should be 170 or less to avoid extracting tannins.

I have never checked my PH. I have experimented with city water and store bought water without any real difference that I could notice.

 

[physast]

175 shouldn't be a problem as when it is mixed with the grain it will drop the overall temperature to under 170.

I will test the temp next time after adding the water. I assumed that it would be under 170 after mixing with the grains.

 

[physast]

Could be the crush? I had to do a lot of tweeking before getting it right.

I just use the crush that midwest gives me.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

The crush may be part of it. I have no idea what their crush is like.

I would definitely take a look at the pH of your mash to see if you are getting in the right pH range because that can have a really huge effect on your beer. Looking at your two threads, I believe this is your problem. I put your recipe into beersmith and came up with the same SRM even though the roasted barley in my beersmith is 300l instead of 450l. The SRM you can reach is tied to the minerals in your water. If your RA (residual alkalinity) is too low you will not produce a (palatable) dark beer no matter how much dark specialty malt you put in it. Your grain should have given you a very dark beer. It didn't. Your RA must be very low in your water, which means your water supply is either on the acidic side and/or has a lot of the minerals which reduce RA. You should be able to obtain a water report from your municipal water supply and figure out what additions you need to make on your water to brew such a dark beer.

 

[physast]

The report I obtained for the water quality shows that the RA is averaged at 60 ppm with a range of 30 - 90 ppm. I do not know if this is good or bad for brewing beer. I have never actually looked into this aspect and usually just buy deer park or some other drinking water from the store. see below.

source units average range
Alkalinity ppm 60 35 to 90
Aluminum ppm 0.007 0 to 0.058
Ammonia-Free ppm as NH3-N 0.16 0.01 to 0.39
Calcium Hardness ppm as CaCO3 102 80 to 132
Calcium Hardness Grains per gallon as CaCO3 5.9 4.7 to 7.7
Dissolved Orthophosphate ppm 2.11 1.72 to 2.46
Iron6 ppm 0.08 0 to 0.7
Nitrite ppm as NO2-N 0.02 0.002 to 0.122
pH – 7.59 7.48 to 7.77
Sulfate ppm 52 32 to 75
Temperature Degrees Fahrenheit 65 45 to 83
Total Dissolved Solids ppm 173 103 to 351

Aluminum ppb 37 18 to 123
Bromide ppm ND ND to 0.16
Caffeine ppb ND ND to 0.05
Calcium ppm 40 31 to 54
Chloride ppm 34 18 to 104
Cobalt ppb ND ND to 0.23
Copper4 ppb 4.7 0.7 to 23
Iodide ppb 8.1 3.9 to 14
Iron ppb ND ND to 26
Lead4 ppb 0.29 0.07 to 0.77
Lithium ppb 2.1 1.3 to 2.7
Magnesium ppm 8.8 5.0 to 15
Manganese ppb 1.3 0.5 to 3.0
Metolachlor ppb ND ND to 0.06
Molybdenum ppb 0.7 0.3 to 1.3
Nickel ppb 2.1 1.6 to 2.8
Orthophosphate ppm as PO4 2.47 1.22 to 3.12
Perchlorate ppb ND ND to 2.3
Potassium ppm 2.9 2.0 to 4.1
Sodium ppm 16 10 to 22
Strontium ppb 165 114 to 231
Sulfate ppm 51 35 to 70
Total Ammonia ppm as nitrogen 0.75 ND to 1.16
Total Hardness ppm as CaCO3 137 101 to 177
Total Hardness Grains per gallon as CaCO3 8.0 5.9 to 10.3
Tritium5 pCi/L 100 ND to 800
Vanadium ppb 0.8 0.3 to 1.4
Zinc ppb 1.2 0.3 to 2.3

 

[physast]

Beer smith gives this for Washington DC

Washington, DC
Calcium(Ca): 38.0 ppm
Magnesium(Mg): 9.4 ppm
Sodium(Na): 19.4 ppm
Sulfate(SO4): 32.7 ppm
Bicarbonate(HCO3): 10.0 ppm
PH: 7.5 PH

Notes
Washington DC water profile from the Potomac River. Suburbs may vary.

 

[nm999]

Sounds like you're doing a no sparge kind of thing. I would try emptying your initial strike water and then doing two batch sparges. Oh, and stir, stir, stir.

 

[physast]

Oh, and stir, stir, stir.

This seems to be comman advice. Next batch I will stir like a crazy man. I might try this recipe again next weekend but this time listen to the podcast first.


Do you know if promash takes into account the efficiency when determining color? I have mine routinely set to 60%. I will check when I get home.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

The report I obtained for the water quality shows that the RA is averaged at 60 ppm with a range of 30 - 90 ppm. I do not know if this is good or bad for brewing beer. I have never actually looked into this aspect and usually just buy deer park or some other drinking water from the store. see below.

I looked at the water report and you have good water for making very light beers in the 3-8 SRM range but you need to adjust to go as high as you wanted to. You are possibly not getting good conversion from too low of a mash pH on those darker beers as a result of the low alkalinity. The drinking water may be similar to your municipal supply in that it is probably filtered so a lot of the minerals are stripped out and has low alkalinity.

 

[pkeeler]

You could try your process on a beer with 2-row and some carapils. Looking to make a very light beer. If your efficiency jumps, it is definitely a pH issue. This makes sense, since a beer in the 25+ SRM range is the kind of beer that your water would not handle. It has been awhile since I looked it up, but Deer Park is also low in RA.

The water chemistry stuff is the final fronteir for all grain brewers. You could probably brew pale to amber colored beers and never have to worry about it. My advice is to try and get a working knowledge and then find some of the good calculators out there. You can make great stouts, you will just need to figure out how much chalk and/or baking soda to add to your mash.

Further, if your mash pH is in range, then your beer pH will be in range and your beer will taste better.

 

[physast]

You could try your process on a beer with 2-row and some carapils. Looking to make a very light beer. If your efficiency jumps, it is definitely a pH issue.

This last recipe had 11 lbs of 2-row.. And only ~1.5 lbs of other darker grain. This makes me think it's not just a pH issue. In fact, I have never had an efficiency above 65% in the past, which was my max.

 

[pkeeler]

[quoteThis last recipe had 11 lbs of 2-row.. And only ~1.5 lbs of other darker grain. This makes me think it's not just a pH issue. In fact, I have never had an efficiency above 65% in the past, which was my max.][/quote]

No doubt there are other places for improvement. But 1.5 lbs is a tremendous amount of dark grain, which would lead to a dark beer, which would mean a low mash pH, which would be lower efficiency. This hobby should be fun, and you have three choices really:

1. Learn some water chemistry
2. Brew beers < 12 SRM
3. Buy more grain than otherwise needed

To me, adding a tsp of baking soda to get better beer with lower cost is a no brainer. But to each their own.

 

[physast]

No doubt there are other places for improvement. But 1.5 lbs is a tremendous amount of dark grain, which would lead to a dark beer, which would mean a low mash pH, which would be lower efficiency. This hobby should be fun, and you have three choices really:

1. Learn some water chemistry
2. Brew beers < 12 SRM
3. Buy more grain than otherwise needed

To me, adding a tsp of baking soda to get better beer with lower cost is a no brainer. But to each their own.

This hobby is extremely fun! The best part is even when things go wrong you still usually get great beer and the learning process is endless.

I will do some reading on water chemistry to see what I can learn. My point of my last post was that I have until this last beer been making light beers using only 2-row/pils with efficiency in the 50 - 60% range. This is what leads me to beleive I am doing something wrong other than just pH.

I plan on brewing again this weekend and will check my mash pH and try to keep notes on everything I do to help with the process.

I have also thought about joining a local brewing club to watch others and learn from them.