Couple of bottling/sanitizing questions

[kontrol]

So I'm getting ready to bottle my beer and after reading and reading, I have more question than I had.

I did read revvy tutorial in this section (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/bottling-tips-homebrewer-94812/)

As I understand he use a vinator and starsan to sanitize the beer bottle. I thought that to sanitize, the solution had to be in contact with the surface at least 30 seconds to be efficient. So isn't it a bit to fast?

Also when you put your bottle to dry on a rack or something, how long can you leave them to dry before they are not sanitized anymore?

I work (Did 1 brew and it's not even bottled, so not much for experience lol) with metabisulfite potassium. I was told at my LHBS that I could only spray on my hydrometer and wine stealer before I put it in my fermenter to take reading and that it didn't need any rinse. But after reading most people say that metabisulfite had to be rinse when working with beer as this could get mixed in the wort and develop off-flavors. So I don't know what to think anymore. John palmer doesn't even list the k-sulfite as a sanitizer.

I accumulated many questions since I started brewing (and even before) and here's the questions that being bugging my for a while that I should get a good grip on this subject to go forward and feel more comfortable with brewing in general.
So to sums all my question (for myself also):

1. When using a vinator and starsan to sanitize bottle, how come it doesn't need to be in contact for at least 30 seconds to be properly sanitized?

2. How long can I leave my sanitized bottle on a beer dry rack (upside down) before they are no longer "sanitized"? Same question apply on other beer stuff I sanitize, how long after it's not in the solution does it remain "sanitized".

3. Should I rinse my stuff after I sanitized them with k-sulfite? Some site says you have to for beer stuff, some doesn't mention it. LHBS says you don't need to rinse. It appears to depend on the PPG of the solution. I'm lost on that topic.

4. Metabisulfute potassium? Anyone work with these? k-sulfite vs starsan, what's your opinion? Is starsan more efficient?

5. If I buy starsan, how long does the bottle last (non diluted, pure)? And how long the solution last?

6. Might sound weird but, can you re-use a starsan solution more than once? Like you sanitize your beer bottle in the vinator, then drip the bottle cap, then put it in the carboy, and then store it in a bottle for another brew day? Is that bad practice?

7. How do you sanitize your glass carboy using starsan. Do you fill it up to the top? Put a little bit of solution in it and swirl it around for 30 seconds? Using k-sulfite people say you put like 1 GAL of solution in it and, swirl a bit and the steam it generate will sanitize the rest. Does it work like that with starsan?

Sorry for long post and questions, and many thanks for all the nice answers and tips I get on this forum

 

[kontrol]

My wall of text was awful? Sorry those were question I accumulated and couldn't find proper answer on the web. Nevertheless I think after reading so many articles I start to find a converging point. Problem is so many people have different view/opinions/knowledge about a same topic.

I have written in bold what I think I understand to my questions. If anyone would like to comment or confirm.

By the way I've seen so many bad tutorial on the web and youtube that I shouldn't worry too much with sanitizing as long as I follow advices I see here. If they can make beer with very bad methods, so should I with good practices (I'm just trying to figure the good practices still).

So I'm getting ready to bottle my beer and after reading and reading, I have more question than I had.

I did read revvy tutorial in this section (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/bottling-tips-homebrewer-94812/)

As I understand he use a vinator and starsan to sanitize the beer bottle. I thought that to sanitize, the solution had to be in contact with the surface at least 30 seconds to be efficient. So isn't it a bit to fast?

Also when you put your bottle to dry on a rack or something, how long can you leave them to dry before they are not sanitized anymore?

I work (Did 1 brew and it's not even bottled, so not much for experience lol) with metabisulfite potassium. I was told at my LHBS that I could only spray on my hydrometer and wine stealer before I put it in my fermenter to take reading and that it didn't need any rinse. But after reading most people say that metabisulfite had to be rinse when working with beer as this could get mixed in the wort and develop off-flavors. So I don't know what to think anymore. John palmer doesn't even list the k-sulfite as a sanitizer.

I accumulated many questions since I started brewing (and even before) and here's the questions that being bugging my for a while that I should get a good grip on this subject to go forward and feel more comfortable with brewing in general.
So to sums all my question (for myself also):

1. When using a vinator and starsan to sanitize bottle, how come it doesn't need to be in contact for at least 30 seconds to be properly sanitized?

Way I see it is, glass it not a good environment for bacteria to develop. Properly washed beer bottle is already a good start to avoid infection in bottle. Using starsan just make it a lot more efficient. Also am I wrong to think that fermented beer with alcool (and the hops) is a good antisceptic. Which might be why it seems less "crucial" to sanitize beer bottle than the carboy. (Don't read it wrong, it's still important).

2. How long can I leave my sanitized bottle on a beer dry rack (upside down) before they are no longer "sanitized"? Same question apply on other beer stuff I sanitize, how long after it's not in the solution does it remain "sanitized".

I read that starsan leave a tiny film on the bottle which prevent bacteria. It will eventually dry and not protecting the bottle. Beer bottle stored upside down is a good protection from stuff going in (as long as the envionment is clean). 1 Hour sound like a reasonable time lapse? Only problem I have with the "film" left on the bottle is that I didn't find it in the tech spec of starsan makers, but was found in an internet article...

For other beer equipment like siphon, carboy, bucket etc since it's plastic, and not stored upside down, if the stuff is left to air dry for more than 15 minute it should at least be sprayed with starsan prior to touch the beer? Could be avoided by leaving the tools in a sanitized closed bucket or something.

3. Should I rinse my stuff after I sanitized them with k-sulfite? Some site says you have to for beer stuff, some doesn't mention it. LHBS says you don't need to rinse. It appears to depend on the PPG of the solution. I'm lost on that topic.

Still don't know if it should be rinsed or not. But I see that beer maker use starsan and wine maker use sulfite. Wine maker use it because they already use sulfite in wine making so it doesn't as much as beer which is more "fragile" to this stuff. I'm highly thinking about switching to starsan already but if someone knows about it.

4. Metabisulfute potassium? Anyone work with these? k-sulfite vs starsan, what's your opinion? Is starsan more efficient?

Word is that starsan if more efficient. But it seems to be words from people that doesn't really know and not a confirm information (or at least I couldn't find it). Still starsan seems to be very effective.

5. If I buy starsan, how long does the bottle last (non diluted, pure)? And how long the solution last?

Could be stored for years. The solution seems to be 2-3-4 weeks top with tap water. Could last longer with RO or distilled water.

6. Might sound weird but, can you re-use a starsan solution more than once? Like you sanitize your beer bottle in the vinator, then drip the bottle cap, then put it in the carboy, and then store it in a bottle for another brew day? Is that bad practice?

Apparently yes you can re-use used starsan. Just change it if it gets too cloudy or there is too many scrap in the solution

7. How do you sanitize your glass carboy using starsan. Do you fill it up to the top? Put a little bit of solution in it and swirl it around for 30 seconds? Using k-sulfite people say you put like 1 GAL of solution in it and, swirl a bit and the steam it generate will sanitize the rest. Does it work like that with starsan?

Still curious about this one. Some swirl it for 30-40 second. I could do that, but with a glass carboy I always feel like I will break it because it goes off my hands lol.

Sorry for long post and questions, and many thanks for all the nice answers and tips I get on this forum

 

[zachattack]

Whoa, this is a lot. To answer a couple of your questions (I have no experience with k-sulfite):

1) If you fill/dunk the bottle in Star San, the inside of the bottle will stay wet long after you dump it out. It doesn't need to soak for 30 seconds, just stay wet for 30 seconds. This is why most of us mix up a spray bottle with star san, you really don't need a lot of it for most things. I mix up 2.5 gallons and dunk my bottles though, but many people use the vinator which is a lot easier.

2) Star san is a no-rinse sanitizer that's designed to be used wet. As long as the bottle is still wet with foam, it's fine. It's probably fine afterward, but the effectiveness goes down if you allow it to dry. As you sanitize them, put the bottles upside down on a sanitized bottle tree or dishwasher rack to drain. Then once you're done sanitizing the bottles, fill them up and cap em. As long as you aren't waiting several hours it should be fine.

3) no experience, sorry

4) no experience, sorry

5) A very long time. Concentrated acids are incredibly stable. Years.

6) Absolutely, like you said. Cloudy means nothing, check the pH with a testing strip and verify it's still low (I think it needs to be under 3 or 3.5, but I forget exactly). If you have soft tap water, it will last a while, but like you said RO/distilled lasts longest. Grab a gallon of distilled water at the grocery store, and grab a 1-quart spray bottle. You can use the spray bottle for many things, and make up occasional 2.5-5 gallon batches for bottling, etc. Of course you can re-use the larger batches too.

7) No need to fill it to the top. Assuming the carboy is very clean, put in a little bit, then swirl/shake so the entire interior gets wet. Then set it upside down on your carboy dryer to get most of the foam out.

Lastly: remember not to fear the foam, and remember that Star San is only effective on things that are already clean. Most of us use oxyclean (or PBW if you have hard water) to clean our carboys, kegs, buckets, etc.

 

[Revvy]

Starsan needs to be in contact with the object for ACTUALLY 15 seconds according to the creator or it, FDA mandates that he has to label it 30 seconds. But either time is moot, it's a wet contact, no rinse sanitizer, as long as whatever you are sanitizing is wet with sanitizer it's doing it's job. You just don't let the bottles dry, and there's no problem.

I put a lot of good info and tips of effectively using sanitizers in here. Including a podcast by the creator of starsan, and one by a rep from iodophor talking about that and more-https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/sanitizer-question-54932/

Most every other question about using starsan can be found in there.

Millions of bottles of beer have been santized this way, if it weren't working would we be doing it that way? A vinator with a no rinse sanitizer IS the smartest option. I've done hundreds of gallons of beer this way, and not had ONE infected bottle yet...sooo?

 

[LowNotes]

Revvy is the man and has numerous super helpful threads around here, and I trust his knowledge more than most.

I also want to say that I have had a lot of success using a dishwasher to sanitize my bottles. You have to use the heated dry setting, because it is the heat that actually does the work (my particular model also has a "sani-rinse" setting which I use...because why not?). It takes about 3 hours for the load to run completely, but I can be sleeping in bed, watching TV, shopping, walking the dog, whatever I want, while it is going, so the time doesn't bother me at all.

I make sure I rinse EVERY bottle after I pour my beer from it, very thoroughly, as I wouldn't trust the dishwasher to get any stuck-on grime from the bottom of a thin-necked bottle...but if they are clean already, a dishwasher is a good sanitizer in my experience.

I don't have Revvy's 100's of gallons, but I have done well over 50, and 1,000+ bottles in the dishwasher with perfect results to-date.

Of course if you don't have a dishwasher this is all moot...and I wouldn't try putting a glass carboy in the dishwasher either

Oh, and I should say, do NOT put any soap in the DW when you run it...I don't *know* that it would hurt anything...but I could easily see residue ending up inside bottles, and it is totally unnecessary.

 

[kontrol]

Starsan needs to be in contact with the object for ACTUALLY 15 seconds according to the creator or it, FDA mandates that he has to label it 30 seconds. But either time is moot, it's a wet contact, no rinse sanitizer, as long as whatever you are sanitizing is wet with sanitizer it's doing it's job. You just don't let the bottles dry, and there's no problem.

I put a lot of good info and tips of effectively using sanitizers in here. Including a podcast by the creator of starsan, and one by a rep from iodophor talking about that and more-https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/sanitizer-question-54932/

Most every other question about using starsan can be found in there.

Millions of bottles of beer have been santized this way, if it weren't working would we be doing it that way? A vinator with a no rinse sanitizer IS the smartest option. I've done hundreds of gallons of beer this way, and not had ONE infected bottle yet...sooo?

Hey thank for the link I'll go check that. I'm planing to buy a vinator and starsan and a beer rack tree (going there at lunch time in fact).

No worries I wasn't arguing your methods but merely trying to understand why it works when most site say "soak" for 30 second at least. You just clarified it. Problem is, internet is so full of good and bad information

 

[SnowGoon]

Here's something else you can try: after cleaning, put the bottles in the oven at 250 degrees for an hour. That's how chemists sanitize lab equipment. Worth a try.

 

[unionrdr]

The vinator & bottle tree are a great investment. Your bottles will then only take up about 2 square feet of space & sanitizing goes way faster. Starsan is good as long as the PH is 3.5 or lower. Cloudy doesn't matter. I make & store my Starsan & PBW solutions in SunnyD 1 gallon jugs. The flat sided fridge door type bottles fit together nicely. And they're heavier plastic than the thin milk jugs. They also take about a year or more to start leeaking. Milk jugs leaked for me in a couple days to a couple weeks.