Counterflow chiller killing my brewhouse efficiency

[ryanj]

I've been brewing for about 3 years now. Earlier this year I built an E-HERMS setup and have been getting pretty respectable mash efficiencies (78-85% depending on the grain bill), but I'm still seeing questionable brewhouse efficiencies.

Earlier today I brewed this recipe: http://brewgr.com/recipe/54814/cloud-city-citra-pale-ale-recipe?public=true

Pre-boil Gravity: 1.048
Pre-boil Volume: 7.8 gallons

After a 60 minute boil (1.4 gallons/hour boil off rate)...

Post-boil Gravity: 1.056

~5.7 gallons into the fermenter (I shot high to account for the double dry hop absorption).

I feel like I'm losing quite a bit of volume going from the boil kettle to the fermenter. I've measured approximately ~0.5-0.6 gallons of loss between the boil kettle dead space, hoses, pump, and counterflow chiller.

Any other CFC users have the same experience? Any tips on recovering some of that volume loss? ...or is this just the price you pay with a counterflow chiller?

 

[bornandraisedlv]

I’ve only used a counterflow once, my neighbor has one. What he does with both his herms coil and counter flow is push the wort out with the next fluid being used. Herms coil first runnings gets pushed out with sparge water right until the clearer wort/water is right as the end of the hose going into the kettle. Same thing with the chiller, except the wort gets pushed out with sanitizer water that pushes all wort out to the fermenter.


This clears all hoses and chiller/coil of wort. I do this with my herms coil as well. Works well for me.

 

[ryanj]

I’ve only used a counterflow once, my neighbor has one. What he does with both his herms coil and counter flow is push the wort out with the next fluid being used. Herms coil first runnings gets pushed out with sparge water right until the clearer wort/water is right as the end of the hose going into the kettle. Same thing with the chiller, except the wort gets pushed out with sanitizer water that pushes all wort out to the fermenter.


This clears all hoses and chiller/coil of wort. I do this with my herms coil as well. Works well for me.

I use that technique for my HERMS coil, but for the chiller... I don't know...that sounds risky. I don't want to accidently dump a bunch of sanitizer solution into my fermenter. That's an interesting idea though...I'll have to give it some thought to how I could do this safely.

 

[bornandraisedlv]

I use that technique for my HERMS coil, but for the chiller... I don't know...that sounds risky. I don't want to accidently dump a bunch of sanitizer solution into my fermenter. That's an interesting idea though...I'll have to give it some thought to how I could do this safely.

Yeah if I remember correctly we switched the pump off once the sanitizer hit the pump. So only loss was one 6’ hose.

 

[ryanj]

Yeah if I remember correctly we switched the pump off once the sanitizer hit the pump. So only loss was one 6’ hose.

So there’s my problem. After my pump is a 2’ hose going up to my chiller, and then the chiller has 20’ of coil, then another short hose going to the fermenter. I don’t know how I’d be able to stop the flow in time.

 

[bornandraisedlv]

So there’s my problem. After my pump is a 2’ hose going up to my chiller, and then the chiller has 20’ of coil, then another short hose going to the fermenter. I don’t know how I’d be able to stop the flow in time.

Maybe increase the hose length from the chiller to the fermenter? Seems counterproductive but might give you the length to stop it in time?

 

[FunkedOut]

Push the wort with CO2.

 

[ryanj]

Push the wort with CO2.

That’s actually kind of brilliant... that would absolutely work.

 

[jack13]

Blow it out? Maybe hold a filter over opening as you blow if you're worried about germs. But your germs would be touching such a tiny surface area of wort I for one would skip the filter.

 

[Dland]

A counterflow or plate chiller will also drain out if vessel you are sending cooled wort into is below your BK and cooling apparatus. Gravity pulls it though.

 

[ryanj]

A counterflow or plate chiller will also drain out if vessel you are sending cooled wort into is below your BK and cooling apparatus. Gravity pulls it though.

The way my brewstand is oriented, I have my BK drain into my pump (lowest point), then up to the chiller (about 3' off the ground), and then it exits the chiller and into a short hose that goes into my fermenter.

But again, if I can hook up some pressurized gas (co2 or o2) to the line, I can very easily just "push" everything through no matter where it is.

 

[ryanj]

Push the wort with CO2.

Better yet -- I should use o2. I already use pure o2 to oxygenate my wort, so all I have to do is get a different fitting to connect my o2 regulator to the 1/2" hose and then let her rip.

 

[bracconiere]

Better yet -- I should use o2. I already use pure o2 to oxygenate my wort, so all I have to do is get a different fitting to connect my o2 regulator to the 1/2" hose and then let her rip.

isn't o2 a lot more expensive than co2? i know those little red can's from the hardware store are a pretty penny..

 

[ryanj]

isn't o2 a lot more expensive than co2? i know those little red can's from the hardware store are a pretty penny..

Yeah, it's a lot more expensive than co2, but not expensive in general. ~$11 a tank?

At the rate I brew, I use a tank per year. The main reason for considering o2 is because I already have a hand held regulator, so there's nothing new to buy. Plus, 20-30 seconds of low pressure will probably be enough to clear the lines.

 

[bracconiere]

Yeah, it's a lot more expensive than co2, but not expensive in general. ~$11 a tank?

At the rate I brew, I use a tank per year. The main reason for considering o2 is because I already have a hand held regulator, so there's nothing new to buy. Plus, 20-30 seconds of low pressure will probably be enough to clear the lines.

11 bucks a tank? from the welding shop or the hardware store?

 

[ryanj]

11 bucks a tank? from the welding shop or the hardware store?

Lowes.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Worthington-Cylinders-1-4-oz-Pre-Filled-Propane-Tank/3087507

I've been brewing for almost 3 years and I'm only on my 2nd tank.

 

[day_trippr]

Chase it with sparge liquor...

Cheers!

 

[bracconiere]

Lowes.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Worthington-Cylinders-1-4-oz-Pre-Filled-Propane-Tank/3087507

I've been brewing for almost 3 years and I'm only on my 2nd tank.

lol, yep expensive...40.1g's for 11$, when co2 costs 27 for 20lb's! but if your getting that much use out of them....Just Do It!

 

[mongoose33]

That’s actually kind of brilliant... that would absolutely work.

It's what I do, too.

Here's a pic of my setup, the red lines are both coming off the regulator which is behind the mash tun to the left. You can see my CF chiller underneath the BK.

Here's a closeup of the hoses; the one on the right has a fitting that connects to a Camlock hose. You can get one here: https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/cammfl.htm It connects to a swivel nut on the end of the red hose.

Of course, it depends on what you're using for hose connections as to whether this or something else at brewhardware would work.

What I do is shut off the pump, and immediately use a hemostat to clamp the hose coming out of the pump as close to the camlock as I can. I disconnect the female camlock from the pump, and connect it to the CO2 line. I turn on the gas (just a few PSI seems to work well), release the hemostat, and it pushes through most of the liquid left in the CF chiller.

You have to take a little care so you don't get a big eruption of CO2 in the BK or MT, depending on what you're pushing it into, but it's not hard.

 

[ryanj]

It's what I do, too.

Here's a pic of my setup, the red lines are both coming off the regulator which is behind the mash tun to the left. You can see my CF chiller underneath the BK.

View attachment 603908

Here's a closeup of the hoses; the one on the right has a fitting that connects to a Camlock hose. You can get one here: https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/cammfl.htm It connects to a swivel nut on the end of the red hose.

Of course, it depends on what you're using for hose connections as to whether this or something else at brewhardware would work.

What I do is shut off the pump, and immediately use a hemostat to clamp the hose coming out of the pump as close to the camlock as I can. I disconnect the female camlock from the pump, and connect it to the CO2 line. I turn on the gas (just a few PSI seems to work well), release the hemostat, and it pushes through most of the liquid left in the CF chiller.

You have to take a little care so you don't get a big eruption of CO2 in the BK or MT, depending on what you're pushing it into, but it's not hard.

View attachment 603907

Perfect! My oxygenation setup has a 1/4" flare fitting, so I can just swap that cam to flare fitting onto it, hook it up to the hose that was connected to my brew kettle, and push everything right through. This will give me almost zero volume loss. Thank you so much for this tip!!

 

[ryanj]

Well, the "gas push" technique sort of worked. I drained my BK like normal into the pump and when the kettle was empty, I popped the hose off, connected it to my o2 tank and pressurized. The wort began to flow, but I noticed it quickly turned into a bunch of bubbles. Maybe I gave it too much pressure and the gas just pushed through the pockets of wort.

@mongoose33 any tips on your method?

All in all, I hit my target OG and volume, so I guess it's not too bad.

 

[mongoose33]

Well, the "gas push" technique sort of worked. I drained my BK like normal into the pump and when the kettle was empty, I popped the hose off, connected it to my o2 tank and pressurized. The wort began to flow, but I noticed it quickly turned into a bunch of bubbles. Maybe I gave it too much pressure and the gas just pushed through the pockets of wort.

@mongoose33 any tips on your method?

All in all, I hit my target OG and volume, so I guess it's not too bad.

Here's what I try to do. Just as the wort runs out and just before the pump starts to run dry, I stop it. I try to leave a few inches of wort in the input hose going into the pump.

Then I attach the gas line (you meant CO2 above right?) to the input hose, and turn on the pump and then almost immediately the CO2. The idea is to get the wort moving before I begin to push it with CO2.

Then, as you've discovered, you need to shut off the CO2 as soon as you get bubbles.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Works for closed transfers too. Pack lines with sani or pasteurization water, push out with beer, then push beer out with CO2.