Cost of 240v 30a outlet

[bbohanon]

How about installing a normal 30 amp breaker and using a GFCI extension cord? I guess that would cost more to buy the cord and then the regular 30 amp breaker than it would just to buy a GFCI breaker

Its the wiring itself you need to worry about more than anything else..trying to pull power over a wire that is not rated to pull that amount of power = disaster waiting to happen as it will burn up the wiring(and most likely your house).

Again, grab the Wiring Simplified book or any of the nice glossy wiring books at the big box stores and just spend some time reading over it..its a cheap way to get informed on what you are facing and how to stay safe when you are ready to tackle it, or if you should just pony up and pay an electrician if you still are unsure of the task at hand.

 

[h22lude]

I would go down the spa panel road based on what I see if you can get enough room to drop in the 2 pole breaker to jump it over to the spa panel.

The Spa panel will get you the GFCI coverage you need and subs out the brewery panel from the main which in my mind is a better design.

I also agree with the rest of the crowd here on permitting and inspection as well for piece of mind and insurance should something go sideways(even if the disaster/fire is not related to your wiring) and you need to prove it passed inspection.

You should still be able to do this yourself and have it pass with no issues if you can find the space in your panel to jump a 2 pole over to the spa panel for your brewery service.

Just playing devil's advocate (and trying to learn at the same time)...if I could fit a 30A breaker to power a spa panel with a 50A GFCI breaker, why wouldn't I just install a 30A GFCI breaker in my main box and be done with it? Seems like less wiring to go through.

 

[jeffmeh]

Just playing devil's advocate (and trying to learn at the same time)...if I could fit a 30A breaker to power a spa panel with a 50A GFCI breaker, why wouldn't I just install a 30A GFCI breaker in my main box and be done with it? Seems like less wiring to go through.

For some unknown and baffling reason, a 30a breaker and a 50a GFCI spa panel cost less than a 30a GFCI breaker. In a more rational world, or if you don't care about the additional expense, your logic is sound.

Of course, the other advantage to the spa panel is that if you install it as a pluggable device, you can take it with you when you move.

 

[h22lude]

For some unknown and baffling reason, a 30a breaker and a 50a GFCI spa panel cost less than a 30a GFCI breaker. In a more rational world, or if you don't care about the additional expense, your logic is sound.

Of course, the other advantage to the spa panel is that if you install it as a pluggable device, you can take it with you when you move.

Ha well that doesn't make much sense. You would think a 50A GFCI breaker would cost the same if not more than a 30A GFCI breaker. I'll have to check out HD and price this out.

Taking it with me is a good thought, though I could also take the 30A GFCI breaker with me. Granted I would have to fix the hole in the wall where the outlet was lol

I did just read the main reason hot tubs need to go on their own spa panel is because for some reason some times spas trip a regular 30A GFCI breaker for no reason. The spa panel fixes that.

 

[jeffmeh]

I would think that the cheapest way to wire the spa panel to be portable would be a male plug with power cable from your new 240v outlet to the spa panel, hard-wired with a strain relief, and another 240v female outlet in a cutout in the spa panel box (you would plug your control panel into that).

And taking your 30a breaker with you would only work if you had a compatible service panel in your new place. Neither worth counting on nor worrying about, IMO.

 

[h22lude]

I would think that the cheapest way to wire the spa panel to be portable would be a male plug with power cable from your new 240v outlet to the spa panel, hard-wired with a strain relief, and another 240v female outlet in a cutout in the spa panel box (you would plug your control panel into that).

And taking your 30a breaker with you would only work if you had a compatible service panel in your new place. Neither worth counting on nor worrying about, IMO.

I think at this point (whether I do spa panel or GFCI breaker), it doesn't need to be portable. We do want to move within a year but that doesn't mean it will happen. If and when it happens, I can just put a new one in the new house. And hopefully if I can do this myself here I will be able to do it there as well.

So for the spa panel, I would need a regular 30A breaker which feeds the 50A GFCI spa panel which is where the outlet is powered from?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-Homeline-30-Amp-Two-Pole-Circuit-Breaker-HOM230CP/202353325

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Midwest-...el-Disconnect-with-GFI-UG412RMW250P/100686230


Edit: why does the panel say 240W, 240V and 50A. Shouldn't that be 12,000W?

 

[jeffmeh]

I think at this point (whether I do spa panel or GFCI breaker), it doesn't need to be portable. We do want to move within a year but that doesn't mean it will happen. If and when it happens, I can just put a new one in the new house. And hopefully if I can do this myself here I will be able to do it there as well.

So for the spa panel, I would need a regular 30A breaker which feeds the 50A GFCI spa panel which is where the outlet is powered from?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-Homeline-30-Amp-Two-Pole-Circuit-Breaker-HOM230CP/202353325

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Midwest-...el-Disconnect-with-GFI-UG412RMW250P/100686230

Yes, but it has to be compatible with your service panel. The incremental cost of making the spa panel pluggable is the additional male plug and female outlet, minus one strain relief you wouldn't need (you will need two if you are hard wiring it, one if it is only hard-wired on the input side, though these are cheap). If you plan to move I would definitely do it, but that it is up to you.

 

[Owly055]

It doesnt look like you have any slot open on your main panel, which turns this into a bigger job.

They make standard breakers, and half size breakers.......... It's easy to pull a full size breaker and replace it with two smaller breakers. This makes it easy to free up spaces in a box. Note that this box already has both..........


H.W.

 

[bbohanon]

I think at this point (whether I do spa panel or GFCI breaker), it doesn't need to be portable. We do want to move within a year but that doesn't mean it will happen. If and when it happens, I can just put a new one in the new house. And hopefully if I can do this myself here I will be able to do it there as well.

So for the spa panel, I would need a regular 30A breaker which feeds the 50A GFCI spa panel which is where the outlet is powered from?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-Homeline-30-Amp-Two-Pole-Circuit-Breaker-HOM230CP/202353325

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Midwest-...el-Disconnect-with-GFI-UG412RMW250P/100686230


Edit: why does the panel say 240W, 240V and 50A. Shouldn't that be 12,000W?

Honestly, I would put a 2 pole 50amp breaker in the main to feed the 50amp spa panel. This way you are 50amp all the way back to the main. Its just my preference as I dont like to have a smaller upstream bottleneck in my main when it comes to powering up things.

It is odd that a GFCI breaker is more expensive than a spa panel providing the same service, but it is. The GFCI 2-pole 30amp Square D breaker I have in my sheds sub panel I got from a HBT person who got the wrong breaker(but it was the exact one I needed) for $60 which was a steal as that breaker is over $100 new.

I cannot say enough to go out to one of the big box stores and grab a how-to electrical book on all of this before you go out and buy anything so you know whats what and can formulate a solid plan of attack that fits your build-out.

 

[Bobby_M]

The added benefit of the spa panel is that you can take it with you when you move. Otherwise, you're looking at $100 for a GFCI for this panel and then doing it again when you buy a house with a different brand panel.. Long story short, there is very little reason to put a GFCI directly in your panel.

 

[Owly055]

Honestly, I would put a 2 pole 50amp breaker in the main to feed the 50amp spa panel. This way you are 50amp all the way back to the main. Its just my preference as I dont like to have a smaller upstream bottleneck in my main when it comes to powering up things.

It is odd that a GFCI breaker is more expensive than a spa panel providing the same service, but it is. The GFCI 2-pole 30amp Square D breaker I have in my sheds sub panel I got from a HBT person who got the wrong breaker(but it was the exact one I needed) for $60 which was a steal as that breaker is over $100 new.

I cannot say enough to go out to one of the big box stores and grab a how-to electrical book on all of this before you go out and buy anything so you know whats what and can formulate a solid plan of attack that fits your build-out.

GFCI circuit breakers are not a typical high volume consumer item........ Spas are extremely common, and spa panels are high production. I've only seen a few GFCI circuit breakers in breaker boxes. Another solution is the power cords used for large pressure washers. A 5 HP pressure washer will have a cord with a GFCI built into it. I've worked with 240 and 480 circuits where water was involved for years ...........without any ground fault protection..... It's a relatively new thing.

H.W.

 

[Hello]

The added benefit of the spa panel is that you can take it with you when you move. Otherwise, you're looking at $100 for a GFCI for this panel and then doing it again when you buy a house with a different brand panel.. Long story short, there is very little reason to put a GFCI directly in your panel.

Are you saying the spa panel is best thing making the GFCI in the main panel unnecessary?

 

[bbohanon]

Are you saying the spa panel is best thing making the GFCI in the main panel unnecessary?

If you are putting in a sub panel, you want the GFCI to live at the connection point of the brewery for the GFCI protection. In this case its the spa panel that is the last stop before the brewery gets plugged in so the GFCI in the main panel is not needed as the spa panel with the GFCI would get tripped before it even got to the main panel if there was an issue.

 

[jeffmeh]

Honestly, I would put a 2 pole 50amp breaker in the main to feed the 50amp spa panel. This way you are 50amp all the way back to the main. Its just my preference as I dont like to have a smaller upstream bottleneck in my main when it comes to powering up things.

It is odd that a GFCI breaker is more expensive than a spa panel providing the same service, but it is. The GFCI 2-pole 30amp Square D breaker I have in my sheds sub panel I got from a HBT person who got the wrong breaker(but it was the exact one I needed) for $60 which was a steal as that breaker is over $100 new.

I cannot say enough to go out to one of the big box stores and grab a how-to electrical book on all of this before you go out and buy anything so you know whats what and can formulate a solid plan of attack that fits your build-out.

I wouldn't go with a 50a breaker unless I wanted a 50a brewery. If the OP did for his 30a brewery, he would incur the additional expense of sizing up the wire to a 50a rating, and would either need to run that gauge inside his control panel, or would need additional breakers to step down to smaller wire.

 

[h22lude]

The added benefit of the spa panel is that you can take it with you when you move. Otherwise, you're looking at $100 for a GFCI for this panel and then doing it again when you buy a house with a different brand panel.. Long story short, there is very little reason to put a GFCI directly in your panel.

So it seems like the only reason for a spa panel is portability (which in the end could save you some money if you move).

I wouldn't go with a 50a breaker unless I wanted a 50a brewery. If the OP did for his 30a brewery, he would incur the additional expense of sizing up the wire to a 50a rating, and would either need to run that gauge inside his control panel, or would need additional breakers to step down to smaller wire.

I agree. I would need #10 for 30A or 8# for 50A. I assume #8 is harder to work with and more expensive.

 

[augiedoggy]

Do you know the complete load of your box? I paid $300 for a 20a NEMA receptacle in March 2014. I was quoted $485.25 for a 50a GFCI breaker; however, that quote doesn't include trenching to a shed and a sub panel will have to be installed. For the breaker itself though, that's what they want.

Now, it looks like you do have room but you have to double up those 15s like they have on the top right. As far as I understand now, you need to take 4 of those 15s and fit them into two spaces leaving you two other spaces which will hold the 240v 30a.

What wattage are your elements? 30a won't allow you to run two 5500W elements together. Not a problem if you don't care about back to back batches. 30a will run the 5500W and two pumps together without issue.

A couple of things. You may want to just install a spa panel if you want 120v as well. You also may need a permit which you, as a homeowner can get. Check your town/city website. For me, I can do all of the work I want with a permit. They don't need me to hold any type of license. Suckers. haha

a 50a gfci breaker is $60 if you buy a complete 50a spa panel at the home depot with the breaker installed otherwise they are about $100 separately... sounds like who ever quoted you marked the price up 400% or so...

if you use a regular 30A 2 pole breaker ($10) for the main box and use a 50a gfci spa panel mounted by the outlet (makes a great master kill switch) you still get the gfci protection from the 50a breaker and the overcurrent protection from the main 30a breaker...(This is what I did). the ground fault protection is independent and will work correctly regardless... I was also told its best to have the gfci breaker closest to the load like they are in a kitchen/bathroom or hot tub...

By the way I think 6 guage is required for 50 or 60 amps and 8 is only good for like 40-45amps... could be wrong but thats what I thought I was told when I bought my 10g. I know I needed #6 wire for my hot tub but that is 60a too...

 

[ccbadd]

If any of those 15A breakers are AFCI (not GFCI) breakers and feeding a living room, dining room or bedroom (any dwelling room) than you can't swap then for a double breaker unless you can find a double AFCI breaker and I have not seen one. NEC 2011 210.12

 

[h22lude]

If any of those 15A breakers are AFCI (not GFCI) breakers and feeding a living room, dining room or bedroom (any dwelling room) than you can't swap then for a double breaker unless you can find a double AFCI breaker and I have not seen one. NEC 2011 210.12

I'm actually still working on writing out what each breaker goes to. This was never done by the old owner. the 3rd breaker on the right is feeding my living room outlets and I do think the 7th one done feeds outlets in my dining room.

So what is the way around that problem? Would I have to remove two breakers from the main, put in a 40A or 50A breaker to power a sub panel which would hold the two breakers I removed plus the 30A GFCI I need for my brew system?

Edit: I guess the thing I should do now is look at what each breaker is powering. Could I combine 2 20A into one 20A tandem and 2 15A into one 15A tandem as long as none of them are a bedroom, living room or dining room?

 

[Owly055]

I'm actually still working on writing out what each breaker goes to. This was never done by the old owner. the 3rd breaker on the right is feeding my living room outlets and I do think the 7th one done feeds outlets in my dining room.

So what is the way around that problem? Would I have to remove two breakers from the main, put in a 40A or 50A breaker to power a sub panel which would hold the two breakers I removed plus the 30A GFCI I need for my brew system?

You are making this far to complicated.......... It looks like you have 7 full width breakers. Each position with a full width breaker can take 2 narrow breakers. That leaves plenty of room for expansion without a sub panel. Pull 4 breakers and install your 220 GFCI, Install 4 narrow breakers in the other two slots.


H.W.

 

[bbohanon]

I wouldn't go with a 50a breaker unless I wanted a 50a brewery. If the OP did for his 30a brewery, he would incur the additional expense of sizing up the wire to a 50a rating, and would either need to run that gauge inside his control panel, or would need additional breakers to step down to smaller wire.

If this is a new install from a new 50amp breaker to a spa panel 2-3 ft from the main, I would just go 50amp to 50 amp spa panel, the #6 is not that much harder to work with nor that much more expensive for that small of a run and should you ever decide to go to a 50amp brewery later, it's there already.
Just saying...

 

[kal]

If you do decide to do the install yourself, I'd like to add a "+1" to pulling the proper permits and having it inspected.

It's not just about making sure it works, but making sure it's done safely to minimize possible issues farther down the road that the average person may not even realize could be issues.

Good luck!

Kal

 

[h22lude]

You are making this far to complicated.......... It looks like you have 7 full width breakers. Each position with a full width breaker can take 2 narrow breakers. That leaves plenty of room for expansion without a sub panel. Pull 4 breakers and install your 220 GFCI, Install 4 narrow breakers in the other two slots.


H.W.

That is what I was planning on doing however ccbadd just mentioned that if any of those 15A single pole breakers are AFCI, I cannot put those in tandem. They have to stay single pole because there aren't 15A AFCI tandem breakers. I'm just going off what he wrote. I don't know if that is true or not.

If you do decide to do the install yourself, I'd like to add a "+1" to pulling the proper permits and having it inspected.

It's not just about making sure it works, but making sure it's done safely to minimize possible issues farther down the road that the average person may not even realize could be issues.

Good luck!

Kal

Oh absolutely. I was looking into permits but couldn't find the info online. Only thing I found in my state was replacing recepticale, not adding one. I was going to call once I was closer to doing this project. And yes, getting inspected was another thing I was going to do.


Edit: As I sent those replies the electrician got back to me. He quoted me $285. The quote says he will be replacing 4 15A breakers with 2 tandem 15A breakers. Adding the 30A GFCI breakers and all the wiring, outlet and plug.

The contractor for the condo gave me his number and said he was excellent. I just looked him up on Yelp and Angies List and he isn't on either. He is licensed and insured. I just wish I could see a few reviews.

 

[bbohanon]

That is what I was planning on doing however ccbadd just mentioned that if any of those 15A single pole breakers are AFCI, I cannot put those in tandem. They have to stay single pole because there aren't 15A AFCI tandem breakers. I'm just going off what he wrote. I don't know if that is true or not.



Oh absolutely. I was looking into permits but couldn't find the info online. Only thing I found in my state was replacing recepticale, not adding one. I was going to call once I was closer to doing this project. And yes, getting inspected was another thing I was going to do.


Edit: As I sent those replies the electrician got back to me. He quoted me $285. The quote says he will be replacing 4 15A breakers with 2 tandem 15A breakers. Adding the 30A GFCI breakers and all the wiring, outlet and plug.

The contractor for the condo gave me his number and said he was excellent. I just looked him up on Yelp and Angies List and he isn't on either. He is licensed and insured. I just wish I could see a few reviews.

Honestly that is not a bad price at all for that much work if it includes the cost of the materials and the new GFCI breaker..

 

[h22lude]

Honestly that is not a bad price at all for that much work if it includes the cost of the materials and the new GFCI breaker..

I do wish it was a little less but I understand it is a small job and he needs to make money. He wouldn't do it for $50 profit.

I'm actually thinking now I will go with him. Save me the time of getting a permit and inspected. Plus he is insured just in case anything happens.

I'm just curious about the AFCI issue ccbadd mentioned because from the quote, he is just replacing 2 15A single pole breakers with 2 tandem 15A breakers to make room for the double pole 30A. Which means he would be replacing AFCI breakers with non-AFCI ones...if they are AFCI to begin with.

Looking online at other AFCI breakers, they seem to be colored either green or blue. I don't seem to have any 15A colored breakers.

 

[augiedoggy]

If this is a new install from a new 50amp breaker to a spa panel 2-3 ft from the main, I would just go 50amp to 50 amp spa panel, the #6 is not that much harder to work with nor that much more expensive for that small of a run and should you ever decide to go to a 50amp brewery later, it's there already.
Just saying...

There are other things to consider... For example if your house has enough juice in its service to support another 50a load...my old house for example has a 100amp main service ...I also have a 60a hot tub and a large reef tank that draws a lot of power.... I don't think I can add a 50a circuit if I wanted to and still be safe or meet code... I'm sure there are others in the same boat.

 

[reynolds5520]

I'm just curious about the AFCI issue ccbadd mentioned because from the quote, he is just replacing 2 15A single pole breakers with 2 tandem 15A breakers to make room for the double pole 30A. Maybe he doesn't know those 15A were AFCI...

It isn't that they are AFCI breakers now, they aren't. The issue is that when the breaker is changed it has to meet the new code requiring AFCI (Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fault_circuit_interrupter#Electrical_code_requirements

Your local code may be different - not all have adopted the 2014 NEC.

Since your goal is to make room by changing the breakers, you can meet the AFCI code by installing AFCI receptacles as the first receptacle on each of the branch circuits that is moving to the new breakers.

 

[h22lude]

It isn't that they are AFCI breakers now, they aren't. The issue is that when the breaker is changed it has to meet the new code requiring AFCI (Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fault_circuit_interrupter#Electrical_code_requirements

Your local code may be different - not all have adopted the 2014 NEC.

Since your goal is to make room by changing the breakers, you can meet the AFCI code by installing AFCI receptacles as the first receptacle on each of the branch circuits that is moving to the new breakers.

Oh so basically if a bedroom circuit doesn't have an AFCI breaker it is ok but if I were changing the bedroom breaker I would need to replace it with an AFCI one.

Let me see if I understand this. I would need to locate the first outlet in the circuit and replace that with an AFCI outlet (either 15A or 20A depending on the circuit) and that will allow me to put in the tandem breakers without breaking code?

 

[reynolds5520]

You've got the idea, but bedrooms was the 2009 NEC. Follow that link to Wiki, the 2014 NEC requires bedrooms and much more.

 

[h22lude]

You've got the idea, but bedrooms was the 2009 NEC. Follow that link to Wiki, the 2014 NEC requires bedrooms and much more.

Right, I was just using bedroom as an example. Seems like most breakers need to be AFCI now. I assume the 4 15A breakers I replace would need to be AFCI so I will need to buy 4 AFCI outlets and find where the first for each circuit is.

 

[podz]

I was quoted $485.25 for a 50a GFCI breaker; however, that quote doesn't include trenching to a shed and a sub panel will have to be installed. For the breaker itself though, that's what they want.

Now, it looks like you do have room but you have to double up those 15s like they have on the top right. As far as I understand now, you need to take 4 of those 15s and fit them into two spaces leaving you two other spaces which will hold the 240v 30a.

What wattage are your elements? 30a won't allow you to run two 5500W elements together. Not a problem if you don't care about back to back batches. 30a will run the 5500W and two pumps together without issue.

WTF? I can walk into nearly any store and buy a 40a GFCI switch for 30 euro. Here, we put them in the panel and wire them between the breaker and the load.

Anyway, You can easily get 12000 watts with 240v 30a if you run three phase power. Just use three phase heating elements and forget about it.