Correlation between dissolved oxygen and humour tolerance

[Dland]

Are there any lodo experiments not done by lodo affiliates that show a positive result? Can't find much myself.. perhaps because it's so dammned effective you instantly join the church and become an evangelist upon taking the triangle test..

I sure aint a member of any church,, just always trying to learn and innovate in my brewing processes. The only hot side things I've tried is underletting my mash, which is actually easier for me than pouring the grist in while stirring, and ''conditioning'' the grain, which is easy but does add the extra step of having to disassemble and clean the grain mill, and I may not bother with that every batch. I'm probably not going to add many LoDo steps that add to length of my brewing day.

I just started spunding three batches ago. The last lager of the season for me was my first spunded batch. It is 6-7 weeks old now so I started drinking it. The carbonation is smooth, even, and at volumes I wanted, and it took less time and resources over forced carbed beer. The flavor is good, but so is the flavor of many of my forced carbed batches. The flavor difference over forced carb would likely show more and more as the 02 fraction of the bottled CO2 added up. And I have noticed a flavor decline toward the end of some of my slower moving kegs in the past.

 

[ancientmariner52]

I never realized that conditioning the grain was part of LODO procedure. I first tried it as a dust control measure, which is quite effective. It just occurred to me that the fact that I never see doughballs might be due to the pre-wetting from conditioning, rather than underletting the strike water. I'll keep underletting, though, account of it's so easy. I'm lazy, I am.

 

[mongoose33]

Add some hop tea? Or just dry hop the hell out of it.

Yeah, I may have to do that.

I'm going to try the lodo thing, my issues are mainly adding sulphites, but could be good in pilsner. Never really lacked maltiness in other styles TBH. The whole thing I am acutely aware of though it's how much you taste what you expect. I have a pretty good pallet I think and am very good at identifying different flavours, but if I've been primed for something I'll notice it, even if it's not particularly there. I think everyone will. There's those famous experiments where they hoodwinked wine experts and gave them white wine with red colouring in and they to a man described it with descriptors of red wine such as cherry red berry plum etc and gave the white original completely different descriptions. Which isn't to say they didn't taste then but is to say that taste happens in the mind not in the mouth

My wife once brought home a 12-pack of Diet Coke Lime. Talk about almost an electric shock--you have to be ready for that stuff!

************

If you want an early indication that doesn't take too much to do, you might try this:

Do a small mash using LODO techniques as much as you can. Maybe something like 2# of malt. Figure out the appropriate amount of strike water, preboil it for 5 minutes, cool to strike temp, dose it as you normally would, fractionally of course, crush the grain just before dough-in, underlet it, gently--gently--stir after underletting, add a mash cap of some sort, then see how the wort tastes at the end of that. In my experience, it's much sweeter and tastier than it is without doing all that.

Include half a Campden tablet in your strike water, added after cooling to strike temp. This is an oxygen scavenger and helps to get the O2 that escapes our attempts to keep it out.

I can imagine doing something like this using tupperware as the "mash tun," have the liquid to the top, then seal. No oxygen ingress, and you could turn the container to mix things up. Insulate as per normal.

If you have identical containers, do a second one, this time no pre-boiling, stir in the grist rather than underlet, no mash cap, stir a couple times at 15- and 30-minutes...


Then see if there's a difference in the taste of the worts.

 

[mongoose33]

I never realized that conditioning the grain was part of LODO procedure. I first tried it as a dust control measure, which is quite effective. It just occurred to me that the fact that I never see doughballs might be due to the pre-wetting from conditioning, rather than underletting the strike water. I'll keep underletting, though, account of it's so easy. I'm lazy, I am.

I don't think it's due to conditioning. My understanding is the point is to help keep the husks intact. I don't condition the grain and I don't get any doughballs.

It amazed me, and still does, that underletting just eliminates doughballs.

 

[TallDan]

LODO is a fiddly process, and one has to have a certain amount of....dedication?......curiosity?....extra time on one's hands?.....to be willing to attempt it.

The biggest issue, IMO, with LODO is that there's really no way for us to try beer produced that way before deciding whether to pursue it. That's what I wanted--who wants to go through all the gyrations of LODO, maybe buying extra equipment, etc. etc. without knowing whether it's worth the effort?

Answer: Almost no one. Almost.

*********

I've been brewing using LODO techniques since about November 2017. For me, the jury is still out. Are the beers different? Absolutely. In what way? Malt flavors are distinctive. Will you be able to discern a difference and, if so, will you consider that difference to be worth all the fiddling?

I brewed a Pilsner using Wyeast 2124 Bohemian Lager yeast. 12# of Pilsen malt, which is a little high because of losses in the system, hoses, tun dead space, kettle trub, etc. Two ounces German Hallertau at 60 minutes. I brewed it because I thought if any beer would show the influence of LODO it would be a simple pilsner.

Well, it shows the influence all right. The flavor is almost a punch of maltiness, but not cloyingly so. Here's the oddity: I'm not a fan of the style, particularly. But I've had knowledgeable others try it, and they are...well...pretty complimentary of it. Here's just one:

Morrey's review of my LODO Pilsner.

*********

Now, will YOU think it's better? Or worth the effort? Therein lies the rub, as a statistics professor of mine was fond of saying.

I'm trained as a scientist, so I'm always looking for alternative explanations of the results. I attended an "off-flavor" workshop last week and while it was valuable in its own right, I came away interested in how different people perceive different flavors and aromas. Are you able to perceive oxidation in beer? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe someone highly sensitive to the "cardboard" flavor/aroma of oxidation would find LODO important, whereas you, by contrast, might not.

So palate is part of the alternative explanations of results. Sadly, that cannot be controlled.

*********

So why did I bother with all this? The whole oxygen thing makes sense. I've always tried to keep it away from my beer post-fermenation. Pretty good at that, I think. But the hot side? Only one way to test.

*********

That said, guess what makes it even more fiddly? As was noted to me by one of the LODO adherants, one must adjust one's recipes to account for this. I brew a Dark Lager that is, IMHO, excellent. I brewed it LODO. Guess what? The chocolate malt flavors popped--in fact, more than I wanted. Made it taste almost like a porter. Who in God's green earth has porter flavor in a lager? Answer: I did.

Recently brewed a California Common. California Lager Yeast, ale fermentation temps. Northern Brewer hops. In my recipe, there's supposed to be a bite of hoppiness followed by malty finish. Well, I don't have that hoppy bite. The malt? It's there. I wonder if the maltiness is masking the hop bite. I don't know whether I simply need to up the hop bill, or what.


So....in the end, you have to be fairly dedicated and interested in this to try it. There will be potential missteps along the way. Recipes will have to be adjusted. I'm thinking of tossing that CalCommon and rebrewing it, this time with a bigger hop bill. I hate the idea of just tossing $24 in ingredients and propane down the drain, but while it's drinkable, it's not exceptional. Unless I could find a way to post-fermentation add some hoppiness to it....

Add some hop tea? Or just dry hop the hell out of it.
I'm going to try the lodo thing, my issues are mainly adding sulphites, but could be good in pilsner. Never really lacked maltiness in other styles TBH. The whole thing I am acutely aware of though it's how much you taste what you expect. I have a pretty good pallet I think and am very good at identifying different flavours, but if I've been primed for something I'll notice it, even if it's not particularly there. I think everyone will. There's those famous experiments where they hoodwinked wine experts and gave them white wine with red colouring in and they to a man described it with descriptors of red wine such as cherry red berry plum etc and gave the white original completely different descriptions. Which isn't to say they didn't taste then but is to say that taste happens in the mind not in the mouth

I never realized that conditioning the grain was part of LODO procedure. I first tried it as a dust control measure, which is quite effective. It just occurred to me that the fact that I never see doughballs might be due to the pre-wetting from conditioning, rather than underletting the strike water. I'll keep underletting, though, account of it's so easy. I'm lazy, I am.

Yeah, I may have to do that.




My wife once brought home a 12-pack of Diet Coke Lime. Talk about almost an electric shock--you have to be ready for that stuff!

************

If you want an early indication that doesn't take too much to do, you might try this:

Do a small mash using LODO techniques as much as you can. Maybe something like 2# of malt. Figure out the appropriate amount of strike water, preboil it for 5 minutes, cool to strike temp, dose it as you normally would, fractionally of course, crush the grain just before dough-in, underlet it, gently--gently--stir after underletting, add a mash cap of some sort, then see how the wort tastes at the end of that. In my experience, it's much sweeter and tastier than it is without doing all that.

Include half a Campden tablet in your strike water, added after cooling to strike temp. This is an oxygen scavenger and helps to get the O2 that escapes our attempts to keep it out.

I can imagine doing something like this using tupperware as the "mash tun," have the liquid to the top, then seal. No oxygen ingress, and you could turn the container to mix things up. Insulate as per normal.

If you have identical containers, do a second one, this time no pre-boiling, stir in the grist rather than underlet, no mash cap, stir a couple times at 15- and 30-minutes...


Then see if there's a difference in the taste of the worts.

I don't think it's due to conditioning. My understanding is the point is to help keep the husks intact. I don't condition the grain and I don't get any doughballs.

It amazed me, and still does, that underletting just eliminates doughballs.

Substantial evidence to back up the OP's observation. Fun and humor levels are approaching that of a FBI background check.

 

[ancientmariner52]

I don't think it's due to conditioning. My understanding is the point is to help keep the husks intact. I don't condition the grain and I don't get any doughballs.

It amazed me, and still does, that underletting just eliminates doughballs.

Yes, it does seem to make the husks sort of leathery instead of dry and brittle.

 

[mongoose33]

Substantial evidence to back up the OP's observation. Fun and humor levels are approaching that of a FBI background check.

@divrack and I are having fun...perhaps your problem with this thread is not the subject, nor those doing LODO....but a lack of basic humor genes in your genetic background?

 

[TallDan]

@divrack and I are having fun...perhaps your problem with this thread is not the subject, nor those doing LODO....but a lack of basic humor genes in your genetic background?

Sure. Blame the victim.

 

[arturo7]

I'm thinking of tossing that CalCommon and rebrewing it, this time with a bigger hop bill. I hate the idea of just tossing $24 in ingredients and propane down the drain, but while it's drinkable, it's not exceptional. Unless I could find a way to post-fermentation add some hoppiness to it....

Just squeeze in a lime and call it a Cali-Mex Common