Corn Syrup

[hotbeer]

I used the Kayro syrup. I don't think any vanilla other other stuff in it was significant to alter any tastes or aroma.

 

[huckdavidson]

From the always reliable Wikipedia:

"Corn syrup is a food syrup which is made from the starch of corn (called maize in many countries) and contains varying amounts of sugars: glucose, maltose and higher oligosaccharides, depending on the grade."

Must corn syrup then be mashed (don't even try it!) or at least used with amylase in the fermenter? HFCS has already been subjected to enzymatic conversion, is my understanding.

 

[hotbeer]

Must corn syrup then be mashed (don't even try it!) or at least used with amylase in the fermenter? HFCS has already been subjected to enzymatic conversion, is my understanding.

No, it's already sugar.

 

[huckdavidson]

I used the Kayro syrup. I don't think any vanilla other other stuff in it was significant to alter any tastes or aroma.

That's interesting. This video shows the Brewers Best American Cream Ale kit being made with corn syrup, though I'm not sure if it has vanilla.

@ about 3:35.

 

[huckdavidson]

No, it's already sugar.

Maybe different brands of corn syrup have different levels of conversion (and sugars), whereas HFCS would be converted more fully.

Do yeast readily ferment "glucose, maltose and higher oligosaccharides,..."?

It's the oligosaccharides that would probably cause problems.

 

[hotbeer]

Why don't you make some beer with corn syrup that has no other additives and then make some that has vanilla or what ever it is claimed some have? Remember that Kayro syrup comes in several different styles. Then you'll have something to compare instead of us guessing.

I've used both the light and dark for priming beers at bottling time. As I said earlier, I haven't had the occasion to use if for a main ingredient during the boil. But even when sugars are used for stouts and other beers, sugars aren't a large percentage of the fermentable ingredients. So the other things they bring with them like vanilla are going to be even less significant.

Kayro Light Corn syrup only has some vanilla, no salt.

INGREDIENTS: CORN SYRUP, SALT, VANILLA EXTRACT (VANILLA BEANS, WATER, ETHYL ALCOHOL)

https://www.karosyrup.com/products/#our-products
And their Dark and Pancake syrups don't have enough salt to even be concerned about water chemistry. Which actually salt can make the hops shine more IIRC.

 

[GoodTruble]

If Karo has a bit of vanilla and some higher sugars (oligosaccharides) that can result in residual sweetness, then I may try it in a Christmas Snickerdoodle Wit beer I am going to brew next month. If I do, I'll post the results.

 

[mac_1103]

Must corn syrup then be mashed (don't even try it!) or at least used with amylase in the fermenter?

Dude, just read the Wikipedia page already. It's basically made by treating corn starch with mash enzymes:

"Currently, corn syrup is obtained through a multi-step bioprocess. First, the enzyme α-amylase is added to a mixture of corn starch and water. α-amylase is secreted by various species of the bacterium genus Bacillus and the enzyme is isolated from the liquid in which the bacteria were grown. The enzyme breaks down the starch into oligosaccharides, which are then broken into glucose molecules by adding the enzyme glucoamylase, known also as "γ-amylase". Glucoamylase is secreted by various species of the fungus Aspergillus; the enzyme is isolated from the liquid in which the fungus is grown. The glucose can then be transformed into fructose by passing the glucose through a column that is loaded with the enzyme D-xylose isomerase, an enzyme that is isolated from the growth medium of any of several bacteria."

 

[mac_1103]

Kayro Light Corn syrup only has some vanilla, no salt.

The ingredient list and the link you posted both say it does have salt.

 

[hotbeer]

The ingredient list and the link you posted both say it does have salt.

Such are the mysteries of the mind. I saw salt in the other two but not for the light syrup. Now it's obvious!

 

[hotbeer]

Maybe different brands of corn syrup have different levels of conversion (and sugars), whereas HFCS would be converted more fully.

Do yeast readily ferment "glucose, maltose and higher oligosaccharides,..."?

It's the oligosaccharides that would probably cause problems.

All the different beer flavors and body depend on the different combinations of all of these types of sugars. Including the oligosaccharides. If all of that were the same, then we'd not be having dry beers and sweeter beers. They'd all be the same in that respect.

Different yeasts will ferment and not ferment to varying extents those same sugars too. So don't let your science get in the way of the craftsmanship you also need to put into your beers.

 

[huckdavidson]

Corn Syrup vs High Fructose Corn Syrup

Regular Corn Syrup has 55% higher saccharides.
High Fructose Corn Syrup has <8% higher saccharides.

Either product would need to be used with enzymes to eliminate the residual sweetness of the higher saccharides.

Or perhaps used in much smaller proportions to malt.

 

[huckdavidson]

All the different beer flavors and body depend on the different combinations of all of these types of sugars. Including the oligosaccharides. If all of that were the same, then we'd not be having dry beers and sweeter beers. They'd all be the same in that respect.

Different yeasts will ferment and not ferment to varying extents those same sugars too. So don't let your science get in the way of the craftsmanship you also need to put into your beers.

I agree with this, perhaps finding the balance for a given beer is key.

The video of the guy above who dumps two pounds of corn syrup into his beer and ferments it with Nottingham has one or more of the following going for him:

1.) Has found a corn syrup without many higher saccharides
2.) Likes a sweeter resulting beer
3.) Knows that the Nottingham yeast will ferment those higher saccharides (not sure if it does or not)
4.) There is enough bittering in the beer to cover the residual sweetness of the corn syrup

 

[mac_1103]

Either product would need to be used with enzymes to eliminate the residual sweetness of the higher saccharides.

"Higher saccharides" isn't much to go on. Could be as small as maltotriose or as big as, well, essentially unprocessed starches.. And of course almost any mash is going to have some higher saccharides too. So do malt extracts (they're generally 75% fermentable). I could be wrong, but ISTM that the whole point of using something like corn syrup is to get the complexity of the unfermentable components. Otherwise, why not just use sugar?

 

[hotbeer]

Getting back more toward the original thoughts for the thread.... Now that you've realized there are differences to even the different types of corn syrup, then just treat them like any other thing you use in your beer. If you want the exact same beer next time, use the exact same ingredients including the brand.

But if you have a recipe and it just says to add sugar, then play with it and try out different sugars and see what you get with each. Keep good notes! You might find something unique and desirable with one that you don't with the other. Same thing if the recipe specifies the sugar but you have a lot of some other sugar on hand that you need to rid yourself of.

That's where the craftsmanship and artistry come through. Once you realize there's a difference, then you can use the science to explain why. Currently you seem to be using the science to keep you from trying different things.

 

[huckdavidson]

"Higher saccharides" isn't much to go on. Could be as small as maltotriose or as big as, well, essentially unprocessed starches.. And of course almost any mash is going to have some higher saccharides too. So do malt extracts (they're generally 75% fermentable). I could be wrong, but ISTM that the whole point of using something like corn syrup is to get the complexity of the unfermentable components. Otherwise, why not just use sugar?

It would stand to reason then that commercial beers using corn syrup rely on these desirable unfermentable components for their signature flavor/taste.

 

[huckdavidson]

Getting back more toward the original thoughts for the thread.... Now that you've realized there are differences to even the different types of corn syrup, then just treat them like any other thing you use in your beer. If you want the exact same beer next time, use the exact same ingredients including the brand.

But if you have a recipe and it just says to add sugar, then play with it and try out different sugars and see what you get with each. Keep good notes! You might find something unique and desirable with one that you don't with the other. Same thing if the recipe specifies the sugar but you have a lot of some other sugar on hand that you need to rid yourself of.

That's where the craftsmanship and artistry come through. Once you realize there's a difference, then you can use the science to explain why. Currently you seem to be using the science to keep you from trying different things.

I agree with this, and wouldn't it be interesting if a beer recipe needed a specific brand of corn syrup, something like Karo Syrup, for a flavor profile that couldn't be gotten elsewhere.

Most commercials breweries it seems have their corn syrup made to specific standards with a certain percentage of glucose, fructose, maltose, etc...

 

[MaxStout]

I was putting together an order tonight for Ritebrew, and cruising the various categories to see if there was anything else I needed. I spotted this, 1lb bags of corn syrup solids.

 

[day_trippr]

Some kind of concoction? Can't be a bag of "normal" dextrose?

Cheers!

 

[MaxStout]

Some kind of concoction? Can't be a bag of "normal" dextrose?

Cheers!

Looks like something you can add if you want to bump ABV w/o thinning the beer.

From the page:
56% Maltose, 16% maltotriose, 8% dextrose, and 20% higher saccharides

 

[day_trippr]

Read that - left me wondering how they could even call it "corn sugar solids" as those numbers don't look anything like a bag of corn sugar...

Cheers!

 

[mac_1103]

left me wondering how they could even call it "corn sugar solids"

They don't; they call it "corn syrup solids."

 

[day_trippr]

My error - but is that a distinction without a difference?
I guess I've always assumed corn sugar was a monosaccharide, and that corn syrup would be as well.
Clearly the assay says otherwise, but again, is this something that is a blend of ingredients, or somehow something naturally occurring?

Cheers!

 

[faithie999]

My error - but is that a distinction without a difference?
I guess I've always assumed corn sugar was a monosaccharide, and that corn syrup would be as well.
Clearly the assay says otherwise, but again, is this something that is a blend of ingredients, or somehow something naturally occurring?

Cheers!

or maybe a purposely incomplete conversion during manufacturing at one or more of the enzyme steps in order to achieve a different flavor profile?

 

[mac_1103]

See #30 and #38.

 

[fluketamer]

that reminds me of the mr beer booster from years ago .

 

[huckdavidson]

I was putting together an order tonight for Ritebrew, and cruising the various categories to see if there was anything else I needed. I spotted this, 1lb bags of corn syrup solids.

Known as "Brewers Crystals" - has a carbohydrate profile similiar (if not equivalent) to corn syrup.

The question with both products, corn syrup and brewers crystals, is how fermentable are those higher saccharides? The spec sheet below indicates 80% fermentable which means the 20% higher saccharides are not fermentable (at least not without additional enzymes).

The next question is what do those higher saccharides add to the finished product? Sweetness, body, mouthfeel etc...?

Brewers Crystals

https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/brewers-crystals-55-lb/https://www.northernbrewer.com/products/brewers-crystals-1-lbhttps://www.morebeer.com/products/brewers-crystals.htmlhttps://craftabrew.com/products/brewers-crystals
Brewers Crystals Spec Sheet

https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/SPEC-Ingredion-Brewers-Crystals-111217.pdf

 

[mac_1103]

The question with both products, corn syrup and brewers crystals, is how fermentable are those higher saccharides?

For the Brewer's Crystals, I think the answer is not at all. Unless you're using a diastatic yeast. If the definition of higher saccharides for corn syrup also excludes maltotriose, then I would think the answer is the same. And the fermentability of the maltotriose is also going to depend on the yeast strain.

 

[MaxStout]

Since it's intended to prevent thinning out the beer, I would think those higher sugars are unfermentable.

 

[huckdavidson]

For the Brewer's Crystals, I think the answer is not at all. Unless you're using a diastatic yeast. If the definition of higher saccharides for corn syrup also excludes maltotriose, then I would think the answer is the same. And the fermentability of the maltotriose is also going to depend on the yeast strain.

Since it's intended to prevent thinning out the beer, I would think those higher sugars are unfermentable.

Per the spec sheet they're unfermentable.

Choosing a yeast strain that ferments those higher sugars or using an enzyme should help create a more fermentable wort if desired.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=35999.60