Cooling long run

[tobiusnc]

I've been researching how to cool a run from a keezer in my basement to taps in my kitchen. I've read a bunch of post about using air or or glycol, but I had an idea that I don't see anywhere. I'm assuming I'm missing something that makes this fundamentally impossible, so please point it out to me. Wouldn't it be possible to recirculate the beer back into the keg to keep the beer in the lines cool? This is similar to the hot water systems to maintain hot water at your tap. A pump would circulate the beer through the tap line and the keg, keeping it cool, and just have a tap off the loop. This seems like such a simple alternative to a DIY glycol system. Please explain what I'm missing here.

Thanks!

 

[BargainFittings]

What sort of pump would you use?

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I supoose it could be done although I am not sure how your plumb it or if you'd be able to source a 3 way pump head that could with stand the pressures.

Beyond that, it just seems like a LOT of beer would be tied up in the supply and return runs. Of course maybe your runs aren't that long. Not to mention the "blend" out period between kegs if applicable.

 

[JamieT]

You can pretty much assume you will be drinking flat beer... Any type of rotating pump would knock the CO2 out of solution right quick..

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

A beer pump resolves this but you'd still have to figure out the plumbing.

I say get a small built in ice maker and a cold plate.

 

[tobiusnc]

I'm thinking any potable water rated pump would work. It's cold, and the flow rate can be low (there's only 12oz/10' of 1/4 in tubing, so pushing .5 gallons/minute would cycle 50' of tubing every minute.) The biggest requirement is it would need to be rated for the pressure, and be food grade. Something like the March pump people are using to pump wort should work. Another alternative would be the hot water recirculating pumps like those made by Watts. I'd really like to find a cheaper alternative, but the March at around $150 is the best I've seen so far.

As for a LOT of beer in the supply lines, it would only be double what you would have anyway since the supply side is full of beer in a standard setup anyway, so you're only adding the return lines. I'm looking at a pretty short run (under 15') so I don't consider that a LOT of beer. The return line could likely be smaller than the supply line since the flow rate doesn't have to be that high.

I was also thinking that depending on where the pump is placed, it could help with the 'lift' needed to get the beer up a story and likely avoid needing a gas mixer.

 

[tobiusnc]

Looks like the hangup is that it's difficult to actually pump a carbonated liquid. I think that's the point I was missing to begin with. Unless anyone has an idea on how to make it circulate, I think this idea is dead.

Thanks All!

 

[JamieT]

Didn't mean to kill the idea with the carbonation issue so I will offer a potential solution.. The route I would go faced with a similar challenge..

I would build the equivalent of a counter flow chiller using ,beer tubing instead of copper in a garden hose for the run upstairs + a return line for coolant.. Place a 5 gallon bucket in your keezer and fill with water (light bleach solution) or glycol (starsan would foam like mad).. Recirculate the chilled water through the system using a cheap submersible high head aquarium pump.. Insulate the run with standard ole pipe insulation.. Probably can do the whole thing for less than $400..

 

[tobiusnc]

Thanks for the tip. If I understand you correctly, that's essentially how the glycol long run systems work. It looks like I could build my own trunk line, or buy the premade stuff from micromatic. I haven't priced everything out, but it seems like I could run stainless product lines and copper coolant lines for less than the $10/ft it would cost for a 2 product trunk line, and then I wouldn't have any worries about the beer taking on a plastic taste. I can get the tubing for 15' of 1/4" trunk line for about $75. It looks like that's the way I would go. I'm a little concerned about how much energy will be lost with this system. Also, most of the DIY glycol systems like this recommend using a colder source (like the freezer plate in a kegerator) for the glycol. I wonder how cold it will actually be able to keep the beer in the lines. I would guess that it depends somewhat on the flow rate and size of the glycol reservoir. BTW, is glycol any better than water if the cooler isn't below freezing?

 

[tobiusnc]

In regard to the stainless steel tubing. Is all 316L stainless tubing ok for food/beverage assuming I were to clean and sanitize it?

 

[Orangevango]

I say beer line inside PVC... The efficiency of the transfer between the coolant and the beer inside the line does not matter because the beer will already be cold. All you are trying to do is keep it from getting hot, not cool it down, right?

 

[Orangevango]

oops, that would necessitate constant recirculation of the coolant, nevermind, you just want the coolant cycling when you are pouring, right?

 

[tobiusnc]

My original idea was to not have any coolant at all, and recirculate the beer. There are beer pumps, but they run on CO2, not electricity. If I could find an electrically driven pump, then it seems that you could just circulate the beer through the keg to keep it from getting warm. Is there such a pump, and is it a bad idea to circulate beer?