Cooking Oil vs Fermcap

[Azura]

A few months ago, I ran out of Fermcap that I usually use to prevent kettle boil overs and starter volcanoes. Decided to give peanut oil a try in the kettle. Probably used less than a teaspoon for a 5gal batch. It suppressed the foam in the kettle just like Fermcap does. That didn't surprise me.

The concern was what it might do to the flavor and head retention. The beer didn't have any unexpected flavors and it poured a normal head that lasted longer than I wanted it to. Since then, I tried avocado oil with the same results.

Goodbye Fermcap!

 

[ancientmariner52]

Very interesting! Do you suppose the yeast eat those oils along with the sugar?

Edit: Just remembered, and googled to confirm. Oil in a boiler causes severe foaming, carryover, and priming. Are edible oils different in that respect? Curiouser and curiouser.

 

[Azura]

Very interesting! Do you suppose the yeast eat those oils along with the sugar?

Edit: Just remembered, and googled to confirm. Oil in a boiler causes severe foaming, carryover, and priming. Are edible oils different in that respect? Curiouser and curiouser.

In the case of kettle de-foaming, oil floats and boils off. Oil on the surface of the wort inhibits foam because very complicated science stuff says so. Not sure what you mean about "oil in a boiler causes severe foaming, carryover, and priming". It appears we are talking about different boilers.

Not sure if yeast literally eats oil, but some vegetable oils contain sterols that are beneficial for healthy ferments.

 

[ancientmariner52]

Ah, didn't think about the oil boiling away. I was thinking about the effect of lube oil contamination in an actual boiler, and wondering why the difference in an open system. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[FVillatoro]

Interesting, but FermCap lasts so long for me as I only use 4 drops for a 7.5 gallon boil, works great, and it's only like $4 a bottle.

 

[Azura]

Interesting, but FermCap lasts so long for me as I only use 4 drops for a 7.5 gallon boil, works great, and it's only like $4 a bottle.

In a 10 gallon kettle? You shouldn't even need a defoamer for that much head space. Think about how many drops of Fermcap I just saved you. Another variable is the intensity of your heat source. I have a burner that can blast wort out of the pot regardless of how much Fermcap is in there.

Why buy Fermcap when you already have cooking oil? Fermcap isn't as safe to consume as cooking oil. This is a fact.

 

[FVillatoro]

I bought the Fermcap a long time ago and it's still going, so I will use it until it's gone.

Does the oil also help tame the krausen during fermentation? Another advantage of Fermcap is that it kept my krausen in check and from blowing out the blow tube for those very aggressive yeasts.

 

[Azura]

Most of the Fermcap from the kettle doesn't reach the fermenter. Especially in the quantities that you are using. It appears you don't have many reasons to use a defoamer if all you need is 4 drops in the kettle. There is no harm in continuing to use it the same way.

 

[Upthewazzu]

Fermcap isn't as safe to consume as cooking oil. This is a fact.

I've always wondered what fermcap actually is. Can you elaborate?

 

[imasickboy]

Fermcap isn't as safe to consume as cooking oil. This is a fact.

Source?

We're all very aware of the health issues regarding some cooking oils, and fermcap, (simethicone), is approved for use in adults, children, and infants. There are no known side effects. So what do you know that no one else does?

 

[Derp]

As someone with a peanut allergy, I'd advise against using peanut oil, just in case.

 

[Azura]

Source?

We're all very aware of the health issues regarding some cooking oils, and fermcap, (simethicone), is approved for use in adults, children, and infants. There are no known side effects. So what do you know that no one else does?

You won't believe me or anything I link, so I encourage you to contact the FDA and ask them if vegetable oil and Fermcap are equally safe to consume.

 

[imasickboy]

No need to contact them when you can search for yourself. Which you apparently haven't:

https://www.fda.gov/default.htm

 

[Azura]

https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/fermcap-s-4-kg

FermCap® S is a unique emulsion of an extremely effective surface active agent Dimethylpolysiloxane which prevents foam formation by reducing surface tension. It is used to control foam in kettle and during fermentation. It is completely removed from the beer after fermentation by the yeast and filtration. As a result of preserving hydrophobic beer proteins in solution it actually improves beer foam retention in the finished beer.

Almost no one filters their homebrew.

https://stoppoisoningus.org/dimethylpolysiloxane/

Very little research has been conducted with this ingredient. Use at your own risk. I'd rather use vegetable oil. One less thing to buy.

 

[imasickboy]

Excellent. Much appreciated. I do not use dimethylpolysiloxane, I use simethicone. Same result, different chemical. Your argument holds more water than mine, since I was talking about the wrong chemical altogether.

 

[mongoose33]

I don't use Fermcap-S in the boil--I spray water with two small spray bottles to cool the foam and that's that.

 

[SanPancho]

FDA requires fermcap and biofine type aids to be filtered out, FYI.

As for oil, saw a presentation at CBC few years ago about oil. Somebody in Colorado area tried it. New belgium, oskar, etc.

Didn’t continue the practice. Don’t remember if it was something about yeast health on repitch, or changed ferment characteristics somewhat. But i think that was about using it for/during yeast propagation and not foam control.

 

[MaxStout]

I don't need to search and the website doesn't answer the question you asked. So you need to do the searching / asking. Not me.

Why not? You're the one making the assertion that it "isn't as safe," so why can't you back up your assertion? Either you can provide a link to something showing empirical data that supports your argument, or your argument is mere speculation.

If you choose to avoid using Fermcap under an abundance of caution, that's fine. But then you cannot state for any certainty that it is necessarily more harmful, can you?

 

[MaxStout]

But yes, FDA says dont let people drink it. Not sure why, but there it is.

Nothing wrong with being cautious. And until we know more about those substances, it doesn't hurt to err on the safe side, especially if something benign like vegetable oil can be subbed. But it appears the jury is still out on Fermcap and the like.

 

[NGD]

In general, I find its good practice to limit putting any ingredient with more than five syllables in my food.

Interesting read Azura.

 

[Azura]

In general, I find its good practice to limit putting any ingredient with more than five syllables in my food.

Interesting read Azura.

Can anyone name a 5+ syllable word that really needs to be in home brew? There are some in the yeast department.

Now, I'm not trying to use the Food Babe method of food safety here which is basically don't eat chemical things you can't pronounce. But, PDMS is a substance that takes about 100 years to biodegrade. It has zero nutritional value. MSDS sheets from producers of PDMS suggest this is something you probably shouldn't eat.

To be fair, I still think the typical Fermcap homebrew dose is probably not toxic in the short term. There are several studies that say rats can eat it and not have a problem before they die a few years later. There are no studies that examine the long term human impact of PDMS consumption.

Why take an unnecessary risk with your health when there are safer alternatives?

 

[jimmayhugh]

Can anyone name a 5+ syllable word that really needs to be in home brew?

Oxygenation...
Isomerization...
Purification...
Pasteurization...

 

[V-Fib]

How much simetacone can be in Fermcap? People eat it like candy if they have some GI probs.

 

[Azura]

How much simetacone can be in Fermcap? People eat it like candy if they have some GI probs.

Fermcap-S contains Dimethylpolysiloxane. This is also known as dimethicone which is not the same as simethicone. I'm not sure what defoamer you are using and don't know what the FDA says about simethicone in the context of beer. I'll guarantee you vegetable oil costs less and the FDA won't tell pro brewers to filter it for safety.

I've only used veggie oil three times, but haven't experienced any negative effects so far.

 

[V-Fib]

looks like i got the wrong info somewhere.

My defoamer so far has been a bigger kettle. Might give veg oil a shot if i try a 8 gal batch in my 10 but I'd still be at about 9.5 gal at the start

 

[Azura]

looks like i got the wrong info somewhere.

My defoamer so far has been a bigger kettle. Might give veg oil a shot if i try a 8 gal batch in my 10 but I'd still be at about 9.5 gal at the start

I do 8.75gal boils in a 10gal kettle and have a burner that can blast wort out of the pot. A defoamer has proven to be very useful while I'm doing other things waiting for the boil to happen. Hovering over the kettle with a spray bottle as another poster suggested seems like an inefficient use of time.

Avocado oil demolished the foam better than any defoamer I've ever used. I've used Fermcap-S and Birko's veggie based Patcote 376? that is sold to pro brewers as a substitute that doesn't require filtration per the FDA.

I've only used cooking oils on three finished batches so far. None of them were problematic in any BJCP way. If the forth batch which is currently in the primary repeats the results, I'm a firm believer. First batch was peanut oil. The next three were avocado oil.

Olive oil was successfully used by New Belgium as a replacement for oxygen to infuse sterols, but it was not used as a defoamer in the study they presented. It isn't clear if NB currently uses olive oil instead of oxygen. NB doesn't need a kettle defoamer. They have hardware that laughs at kettle foam.

 

[gromitdj]

I'm not trying to argue because I have no skin in the game, but... It should probably be noted that New Belgium has stated publicly that their tests with Olive Oil were not successful.

Also, the material you presented as fact, pretty much says that it isn't (a fact).

 

[Azura]

I'm not trying to argue because I have no skin in the game, but... It should probably be noted that New Belgium has stated publicly that their tests with Olive Oil were not successful.

Also, the material you presented as fact, pretty much says that it isn't (a fact).


View attachment 560429

You aren't trying to argue by inserting New Belgium's justification for using PDMS? They filter their PDMS. Do you?

Furthermore, they attempt to justify their use of PDMS by saying there are minimal studies that verify the safety of its consumption. This is a red flag. There are more red flags in their basic PR statement. Their PR piece that attempts to justify their PDMS use is something not many consumers care about.

The commonly available NB beers nationwide are filtered. A very small minority aren't. Therefore, their PR statement is barely relevant in this context.

 

[gromitdj]

You aren't trying to argue by inserting New Belgium's justification for using PDMS? They filter their PDMS. Do you?

As I stated, I have no skin in the game. I don't use fermcap, or any foam control. So, no I do not filter it out.

Furthermore, they attempt to justify their use of PDMS by saying there are minimal studies that verify the safety of its consumption. This is a red flag. There are more red flags in their basic PR statement. Their PR piece that attempts to justify their PDMS use is something not many consumers care about.


The commonly available NB beers nationwide are filtered. A very small minority aren't. Therefore, their PR statement is barely relevant in this context.

The image I posted is from your "dontpoisonus.org" website. The public statement I'm referring to are in regards to the use of Olive Oil in lieu of oxygenation, for which it was unsuccessful. You stated that it was a successful experiment.

Again, I'm not interested in an argument. I just thought some clarifications were in order.

 

[gromitdj]

I'm not pointing out the discrepancies for (or arguing with) you, they are for anyone else following along.