controlling mash souring using PH??

[Owly055]

Has anybody done any real experimentation on using PH testing to regulate mash or kettle souring to achieve a specific result?

My recent episode with an accidentally soured fermentation which I stopped by pasteurization at the perfect point has made me want to try utilizing sour mash to achieve a similar result. This cream ale that soured very slightly produced a distinctive and very pleasant "shandy" effect more than a classic sour beer. I'm reluctant to taste a sour mash, though I do not have the same reluctance to taste a sour ferment for some reason. You really cannot beat a taste test. The human tongue and nose give incredibly sensitive chemical analysis that often cannot even be approached by instruments and chemical testing. There are professional tasters in many fields as a result.

H.W.

 

[Beezer94]

Here's a good listen:
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/the-session-creature-comforts-brewing-co/

They talk about brewing their Berliner-Weiss with kettle souring and boiling once they get a specific pH

 

[Owly055]

Here's a good listen:
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/the-session-creature-comforts-brewing-co/

They talk about brewing their Berliner-Weiss with kettle souring and boiling once they get a specific pH

Unfortunately the only device I have with sound hooked up is my Ipad, and I cannot seem to access their podcasts from it.... or don't know how.

H.W.

 

[Beezer94]

They talk about kettle souring with Lactobacillus Brevis & Lactobacillus Delbrueckii and they stop the souring as soon as they get to pH 3.45.

Basically it's mashed/lautered normal, brought to a boil briefly; then chilled to 110F to pitch lacto.
They measure the pH and then bring it to boil to kill the lacto. when they get the pH they want. Which for them they say they can get to pH 3.45 as quickly as 6 hours at 110F.

 

[stpug]

Unfortunately the only device I have with sound hooked up is my Ipad, and I cannot seem to access their podcasts from it.... or don't know how.

H.W.

Does a direct link to the mp3 help any:
http://s125483039.onlinehome.us/archive/ses_2015_10_05_creaturecomforts.mp3

I've tasted a sour mash but as Bill Clinton would say, "I didn't inhale" (i.e. I spit it out). It was fine. Tasted very sour; like sourdough starter; not poopy or like vomit; successful I suppose. It certainly gives you an idea of what's been achieved. In my case, it was a partial sour mash of 20% of the batch done 3 days in advance of brewday and was added to the main mash on brewday just prior to draining my runnings. It was a very experimental batch but came out to be a decent success, even if the sour/tart aspect was more subdued than I had hoped for. I believe, and may be wrong, that the sour aspect was reduced during the boil because the preboil wort was nicely sour/tart but the final beer was about half as sour (thereabouts). In hind sight, the biggest fault of the batch was the ABV which approached 9% and I should have aimed for a more reserved 5-6%.

 

[Owly055]

Does a direct link to the mp3 help any:
http://s125483039.onlinehome.us/archive/ses_2015_10_05_creaturecomforts.mp3

I've tasted a sour mash but as Bill Clinton would say, "I didn't inhale" (i.e. I spit it out). It was fine. Tasted very sour; like sourdough starter; not poopy or like vomit; successful I suppose. It certainly gives you an idea of what's been achieved. In my case, it was a partial sour mash of 20% of the batch done 3 days in advance of brewday and was added to the main mash on brewday just prior to draining my runnings. It was a very experimental batch but came out to be a decent success, even if the sour/tart aspect was more subdued than I had hoped for. I believe, and may be wrong, that the sour aspect was reduced during the boil because the preboil wort was nicely sour/tart but the final beer was about half as sour (thereabouts). In hind sight, the biggest fault of the batch was the ABV which approached 9% and I should have aimed for a more reserved 5-6%.

I'm leaning more and more toward low alcohol brews.... the 7 and 8 percent stuff I was once making just kicks your butt too quickly. While we all like a bit of a buzz once in awhile, I really don't think getting hammered is what home brewing should be about.

The problem with souring is anticipating what the finished result should be. I've been doing a number of no boil / no chill brews, and am satisfied enough with the result that in many cases I see no reason to boil so long as you hit pasteurization temp of about 160. I shoot for 165. This is below DMS formation temp so you avoid that potential problem entirely. This might be very appropriate for sour mash brewing.

H.W.

 

[stpug]

I'm leaning more and more toward low alcohol brews.... the 7 and 8 percent stuff I was once making just kicks your butt too quickly. While we all like a bit of a buzz once in awhile, I really don't think getting hammered is what home brewing should be about.

The problem with souring is anticipating what the finished result should be. I've been doing a number of no boil / no chill brews, and am satisfied enough with the result that in many cases I see no reason to boil so long as you hit pasteurization temp of about 160. I shoot for 165. This is below DMS formation temp so you avoid that potential problem entirely. This might be very appropriate for sour mash brewing.

H.W.

Totally agree with the standard ABV beers and my personal choices. A big beer once/twice a week is great, but I prefer a couple "standard" ABV beers every evening when given a choice. Probably my biggest gripe against big beers is that they take up room in my kegerator for much too long (sometimes I'll resort to just dumping the last gallon because I want the space ). First-world problems, right??

I did two no-boil, fast-sour beers last year. One was "okay" the other was mostly dumped (3.5 gallons); berliner and gose. The problem I ran into in both cases were some mash hops that totally stalled the l. plantarum's ability to sour. They got barely tart and I resorted to 88% lactic acid to get the rest of the way. The berliner was "okay" and the gose was not. I _may_ try another no boil, but since I haven't actually tried a boil berliner/gose that'll probably be my next attempt. For now, I'll live vicariously through your attempts . Keep it up!

 

[drgonzo2k2]

Hey Owly, there is some really good info on the MTF wiki in relation to different Lacto strains, how they sour over time at different temps, and the pH level achieved. Check it out here.

Once you know which Lacto strain you prefer, and the pH where that strain obtains the level of tartness you like in your beer, it should be pretty straightforward to give it a quick check when your close to the time required and see if you're all good.

From there you can either chill it down to yeast pitching temps, pitch your sacc and call it good, or take it back up to > 160F to pasteurize, or give it a quick boil - whatever you prefer really.

I've been experimenting with no boil fermenter sours, and am having good luck. Basically I do everything as normal, heat up to 180, then flameout and chill down to 95, transfer down to fermenter, pitch the Lacto (I use L. Planatarum probiotic capsules), then let that ride for about 2 days, check pH, then lower down to sacc pitching temps and do a regular fermentation.

Hope that helps and happy to chat more about it!

 

[Owly055]

Hey Owly, there is some really good info on the MTF wiki in relation to different Lacto strains, how they sour over time at different temps, and the pH level achieved. Check it out here.

Once you know which Lacto strain you prefer, and the pH where that strain obtains the level of tartness you like in your beer, it should be pretty straightforward to give it a quick check when your close to the time required and see if you're all good.

From there you can either chill it down to yeast pitching temps, pitch your sacc and call it good, or take it back up to > 160F to pasteurize, or give it a quick boil - whatever you prefer really.

I've been experimenting with no boil fermenter sours, and am having good luck. Basically I do everything as normal, heat up to 180, then flameout and chill down to 95, transfer down to fermenter, pitch the Lacto (I use L. Planatarum probiotic capsules), then let that ride for about 2 days, check pH, then lower down to sacc pitching temps and do a regular fermentation.

Hope that helps and happy to chat more about it!

Interestingly L Planatarum is the lacto used for a silage innoculant.

H.W.

 

[drgonzo2k2]

Interestingly L Planatarum is the lacto used for a silage innoculant.

H.W.

Interesting. Apparently it is also really good for "inner bowel support" as that's what the package I have says. Gives me a little chuckle every time I take it out.

 

[Owly055]

Hey Owly, there is some really good info on the MTF wiki in relation to different Lacto strains, how they sour over time at different temps, and the pH level achieved. Check it out here.

Once you know which Lacto strain you prefer, and the pH where that strain obtains the level of tartness you like in your beer, it should be pretty straightforward to give it a quick check when your close to the time required and see if you're all good.

From there you can either chill it down to yeast pitching temps, pitch your sacc and call it good, or take it back up to > 160F to pasteurize, or give it a quick boil - whatever you prefer really.

I've been experimenting with no boil fermenter sours, and am having good luck. Basically I do everything as normal, heat up to 180, then flameout and chill down to 95, transfer down to fermenter, pitch the Lacto (I use L. Planatarum probiotic capsules), then let that ride for about 2 days, check pH, then lower down to sacc pitching temps and do a regular fermentation.

Hope that helps and happy to chat more about it!

I forgot to mention that your link is an extremely useful one.... Thanks

I try to avoid fermenter sours because of the difficulty of killing the bugs off, as well as the fact that you have no control. It's going to do what it is going to do unless you pasteurize as I did.

Note that the other thread I started on sourness versus bitterness, with the intention looking into how to craft a sour brew, as far as how to determine how much sourness and how much bitterness you need to achieve a balance, pretty much went off the rails. It did yield one true gem...... at least I consider it a gem, as it was a bit of knowledge I was unaware of, and that is titratable acidity, which is exactly the tool I was looking for. My next sour beer exberiment will use titration. It will start by measuring a beer I like and consider balanced. I will then make a sour beer using sour mash, and tailoring the bittering and the souring to achieve the same titration acidity as a first step.

Here is a link I found useful on the topic

http://www.eckraus.com/blog/difference-between-ph-and-titratable-acidity-in-wine

H.W.

 

[drgonzo2k2]

I forgot to mention that your link is an extremely useful one.... Thanks

I try to avoid fermenter sours because of the difficulty of killing the bugs off, as well as the fact that you have no control. It's going to do what it is going to do unless you pasteurize as I did.

Note that the other thread I started on sourness versus bitterness, with the intention looking into how to craft a sour brew, as far as how to determine how much sourness and how much bitterness you need to achieve a balance, pretty much went off the rails. It did yield one true gem...... at least I consider it a gem, as it was a bit of knowledge I was unaware of, and that is titratable acidity, which is exactly the tool I was looking for. My next sour beer exberiment will use titration. It will start by measuring a beer I like and consider balanced. I will then make a sour beer using sour mash, and tailoring the bittering and the souring to achieve the same titration acidity as a first step.

Here is a link I found useful on the topic

http://www.eckraus.com/blog/difference-between-ph-and-titratable-acidity-in-wine

H.W.

Thanks, Owly! Glad you enjoyed the link (I'm currently reading through yours as well). I've definitely learned more about funky/sour brewing from the Milk the Funk Wiki (there's a Facebook group too if you're interested) than I have from any other single resource, so I can't recommend it enough. The amount of information they've gathered on these subjects is just amazing.

 

[Owly055]

Thanks, Owly! Glad you enjoyed the link (I'm currently reading through yours as well). I've definitely learned more about funky/sour brewing from the Milk the Funk Wiki (there's a Facebook group too if you're interested) than I have from any other single resource, so I can't recommend it enough. The amount of information they've gathered on these subjects is just amazing.

Thanks......but I do not do Facebook. I'm one of a small number of people who are "facebook hostile", based on direct personal experience rather than prejudice alone.

H.W.