Control Panel: PIDs and Switches, or one large touch LCD?

[passedpawn]

I've noticed that there are two types of control panel controls. The first is what The Electric Brewery uses, which is a lot of off-the-shelf components (PIDs, switches) integrated into a panel.

The second style is a GUI on a a single touch LCD (i.e., a tablet, phone, PC). In that case, all the controls are virtual. BCS, BrewTroller, etc are in this camp.

Which interface do you all prefer? Why? I'm re-inventing my own system and looking for experience from HBT.

 

[augiedoggy]

This has been something I wrestled with a lot.... both having advantages... I currently have the analog panel with pids and switches but I'm now building a new control panel with another member heres help that will use an arduino and be controlled through a windows pc with a touchscreen... I am in the ordering/ building stage now but after ive used both myself I feel I will have the the most educated point of view for myself to make that decision for myself because everyones different. There are a lot of guys here that feel even a single PID is over complicating things.

I do argree that in a software based platform you have a lot more configuration possibilities and room to grow your system with out major changes and $ needed. The sky is the limit so to speak on what you can have the system control and do.

 

[passedpawn]

This has been something I wrestled with a lot.... both having advantages...

I'm working on it right now. I'm thinking a single PID for HLT/RIMS/BK, with a selector. What do you think about that? I have a 30A system, so I really can't run more than one element at a time anyway.

I'm going to add USB and Bluetooth to it too, in case I want that kind of control. My thought is to have both the convenience and simplicity of the discrete-components panel, and the option of a remote GUI (e.g., PC) for programmability and visibility into the hardware (graphs, etc).

 

[passedpawn]

Questions regarding timer:

Does it really need seconds?
Would an option to count up as well as down be useful?

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm working on it right now. I'm thinking a single PID for HLT/RIMS/BK, with a selector. What do you think about that? I have a 30A system, so I really can't run more than one element at a time anyway.

I'm going to add USB and Bluetooth to it too, in case I want that kind of control. My thought is to have both the convenience and simplicity of the discrete-components panel, and the option of a remote GUI (e.g., PC) for programmability and visibility into the hardware (graphs, etc).

I only have 30a circiut as well... If you go with 4500w elements (or even just one 4500w element in the HLT) you can easily run a 4500w element along with a 2000w rims at full power like I do and still only be at like 26 amps (realistically these are both switching on and off frequently so the load is really less on the circuit) .. I now use a 5500w element in my BK since I have no reason to use my rims at the same time as my BK.

Using one pid for all three may not work all that well only because the rims pid values may not work as well on the BK and HLT and the rtd probes would ideally all have to read exactly the same resistance/temp...

If you went with a single EZboil unit that might work better for controlling all three. and also keep in mind you may have to buy a couple extra pt100 rtd sensors in order to get three that are all in the same temp reading range without having to constantly change offset values.. of course you can just remember which ones are off by a couple degrees and account for that in your head too.

I would compromise and use the same pid for the HLT and BK and a different one for the rims so you can still control sparge water temps while recirculating with the rims...

 

[augiedoggy]

Questions regarding timer:

Does it really need seconds?
Would an option to count up as well as down be useful?

you know I added multiple timers to my panel because I find them very useful but now I have a pc with beersmith in my brewery so I started using the timer in that software so for me If I had to do it again... I probably wouldnt bother but the ezboil controllers have a cool boil timer build in you can set the 1 or longer hr boil time with... its easy enough to rest as well.

 

[deprecated]

Darn you for making me second-guess myself even more, passedpawn.

My last HERMs system was PID based, albeit cobbled together in a plastic tool box. It was about as simple (and probably unsafe) as you could get. A single PID, single relay, one outlet. I'd just shut off spa panel, unplug HLT, plug in BK, turn on spa panel and set PID to manual. It made beer.

While planning my new HERMs and brewing space I went back and forth between control panel PID or software based (Doug's SBE or CraftBeerPi). I figured I'd stick with PID based because it had been reliable for me previously and being in IT for a career, I didn't really need more bits and bytes to tend to.

Lately I've been second-guessing that approach and thinking that if I can convince myself of SBE or CBP reliability I might go that route, mainly for flexibility and it would just fit my brew space better than a wall-mounted or table-top control panel.

Maybe I should try both and alternate using until I settle on one. I've started a new panel already based on the PJ diagram below.

 

[passedpawn]

Using one pid for all three may not work all that well only because the rims pid values may not work as well on the BK and HLT and the rtd probes would ideally all have to read exactly the same resistance/temp...

If you went with a single EZboil unit that might work better for controlling all three. and also keep in mind you may have to buy a couple extra pt100 rtd sensors in order to get three that are all in the same temp reading range without having to constantly change offset values.. of course you can just remember which ones are off by a couple degrees and account for that in your head too.

FYI, I'm not using off the shelf pids. I'm designing myself, and just doing the PID function in firmware. So, I can have as many separate PID threads as I want, all with their own constants. Same thing with the temp sensors - I can have calibration for each one separately and manage in firmware.

I already have an electric system with 5500W elements (since 2009 ). I would love to upgrade to 50A service to my back patio, but I've already got the 30A gfci breaker, 30 wire across my house, etc, and I'm pretty comfortable with one element at a time.

 

[passedpawn]

I would compromise and use the same pid for the HLT and BK and a different one for the rims so you can still control sparge water temps while recirculating with the rims...

Yea, I've thought about doing it this way. I could technically allow the RIMS to be driven during the off cycles of the BK or HLT, to make sure that the two were never on at the same time. Priority scheduling of the outputs I guess. BUT that means I'd have to be able to switch the outputs with SSRs, and I was hoping to get away with a single Dual SSR and switch between outputs with a mechanical switch. I guess I'll have to think on this.

I would REALLY like to run my RIMS while heating sparge water, so I might just go ahead and put the second SSR in there.

 

[atoughram]

I personally prefer the component system. BCS and BCS type systems are very cool and user friendly but they represent a single point of failure that could ruin a brew day. I have two PID's - if I loose one of them, I can swap some plugs around and keep brewing. For ease of use, Id pick the BCS, although the initial integration is probably a lot more complicated. For reliability, I'd choose individual components.

That's funny Auggie, I added a timer to my panel - but I rarely use it. I can enter times on my old battery operated magnetic kitchen timer much faster.

 

[ebstauffer]

but I'm now building a new control panel with another member heres help that will use an arduino and be controlled through a windows pc

Your timing is most fortuitous..

I've just started on a proof-of-concept project for a much large distillery process control effort. I too have a discrete components controller for my 3-vessel home brewery -- PID for BK & MT and PWM for BK. Recently I've switched a a single vessel system from Colorado Brewing Systems. I've acquired all of the components and have started wiring up the arduino and

Aruidno Yun - hybrid arduino / linux platform. Used for temp acquisition, PID, PWM, communication with server.

Server - old laptop running centOs. I have an old Asus gaming laptop which now run CentOS server. So much less expensive and more flexible than a Windows solution. Did I mention it runs fine on a 8 year old laptop? Interface stack: PHP7, Dojo, Apache, sqlite.

I can't say enough about the Arduino Yun. Yes, the documentation is lacking but it's got built-in REST capabilities which are very well suited to brewery control. Turning on / off a pump is literally as easy as:

http://your.server.here/arduino/digital/9/1 (turn it on)
http://your.server.here/arduino/digital/9/0 (turn it off)

This assume you have a SSR connected to pin 9 on the arduino. Having linux on one side and Arduino on the other greatly simplifies data aquisition, logging, etc.

My single vessel layout:

 

[augiedoggy]

Yea, I've thought about doing it this way. I could technically allow the RIMS to be driven during the off cycles of the BK or HLT, to make sure that the two were never on at the same time. Priority scheduling of the outputs I guess. BUT that means I'd have to be able to switch the outputs with SSRs, and I was hoping to get away with a single Dual SSR and switch between outputs with a mechanical switch. I guess I'll have to think on this.

I would REALLY like to run my RIMS while heating sparge water, so I might just go ahead and put the second SSR in there.

I use a dual ssr for my rims and BK now to save space...

 

[doug293cz]

Darn you for making me second-guess myself even more, passedpawn.

My last HERMs system was PID based, albeit cobbled together in a plastic tool box. It was about as simple (and probably unsafe) as you could get. A single PID, single relay, one outlet. I'd just shut off spa panel, unplug HLT, plug in BK, turn on spa panel and set PID to manual. It made beer.

While planning my new HERMs and brewing space I went back and forth between control panel PID or software based (Doug's SBE or CraftBeerPi). I figured I'd stick with PID based because it had been reliable for me previously and being in IT for a career, I didn't really need more bits and bytes to tend to.

Lately I've been second-guessing that approach and thinking that if I can convince myself of SBE or CBP reliability I might go that route, mainly for flexibility and it would just fit my brew space better than a wall-mounted or table-top control panel.

Maybe I should try both and alternate using until I settle on one. I've started a new panel already based on the PJ diagram below.

Be careful with that design. The 3PDT switch called out is only rated for 9A @ 240V (ref: https://www.grainger.com/product/NKK-Toggle-Switch-2TNZ7?searchBar=true&searchQuery=2tnz7.) You might want to look at rotary transfer switches to perform the switching function.

Brew on

 

[passedpawn]

Be careful with that design. The 3PDT switch called out is only rated for 9A @ 240V (ref: https://www.grainger.com/product/NKK-Toggle-Switch-2TNZ7?searchBar=true&searchQuery=2tnz7.) You might want to look at rotary transfer switches to perform the switching function.

Brew on

I've put a bunch of low voltage rotary switches and encoders on the back of the board I'm making now. The HLT/OFF/BK selector is low voltage, with the signals going to FETs that then go to the coil on a dual mechanical relay that then feeds the load lines to one of the NEMA connectors.

I did much of the schematic yesterday for my new system. I'm putting the SSRs right on the PCB, as well as a dual relay. Heat sinks will mount directly to the 40A SSRs and hang off the board. Should be interesting. I'm attempting to eliminate all the wiring.

I found these red/green 7-segment displays. Kinda expensive, but I'm going to roll with them. With respect to the title of this thread, I'm going to put a bunch of 7-segments on the back of the board for set temps, measured temps, etc, but I'm also adding USB and Bluetooth to add a display later.

 

[wishingiwasfishing]

There is certainly no bad choice, and the choice is also something that each user has to balance their preferences into the decision.

For me, I will always err on staying away from computer based GUI solution for control in one of my hobbies. The problems arise as you get some years out. Software revisions stay current for a period of time, then they don't. New models come out, new operating systems come and go...on and on.

I had a DEQX-P pre-amp. It's a really seriously cool piece of audio equipment. Digital, totally adjustable crossover, room correction, eq, phase control. This wasn't a case where you had some fancy tone adjustments. I had a tri-amped system with each driver going to the unit. You then take in room measurements of test tones on each driver...it takes frequency and phase shift as well. After everything is done, you go to work. Once you get the speakers dialed in you can perform measurements for room correction.

I had one of my laptops dedicated for this system only. No matter what I initially thought about keeping the system going, as time went on it becomes more and more difficult. The decision to do the DEQX-p was not a bad decision...it's a really nice piece of equipment. But, as time went on...I swore that this dependency would not be something I would do again.

This was exactly the thinking I used when decided which type of brewing control to use in my small system. As you can guess, I ended up going with a PID. This enables me a stand alone control box not relying on where computer technology is at.

Oh, I've since put my simple crossover (1st,1st,2nd) back into my speakers and power it with one int. amp

 

[BrunDog]

I would always go with a soft interface over hardware. The opportunity to upgrade or make changes is so much easier.

 

[spittybug]

I currently run a 50 amp, 1 PID (switched between HLT or BK) HERMS system and have no problems. I never do back to backs and therefore don't need both elements on. Even with this configuration I have accidentally dry fired a kettle because I forgot to switch the selector. As a result, I have a procedure now to plug/unplug the kettles from the panel as part of the progression from mash tun to BK. This made me realize that I only need one controlled outlet.

I'm in the process of finishing my latest control panel. 7" touchscreen running CraftBeerPi, 1 240 V switched outlet, 2 120V switched outlet (pump and ?), internal fan, multiple temp probes and tons of unused capability to incorporate TILT and ferm control. Despite the ability to CONTROL dual elements and marginal electric supply to do so (5500w elements will pull ~23 amps apiece if full on, plus pump, plus fan, plus on-surge....who wants to trip breakers???), my safety procedure is now ingrained in me so changing which kettle is plugged in is not a problem.

I will set the HLT to ~170* and use the controlled pump to step the mash through the programmed recipe. When time to boil, simply switch plugs and turn on element. Pumps/elements etc can always be turned on/off from the touch screen or from another device on the network. I'm thinking of a manual override switch to turn the element on/off if the Pi should crap out; that's easy enough to do to ensure finishing brew day.

Big fancy control panels sure make for good beer porn I must admit, but at the end of the day if it gets the job done well, simple is usually better. I found the feature I want most is the timed and consistent stepping through mash temps. I don't need flashing lights, buzzers and switches out the kazoo; just control.

 

[BrunDog]

I should have added it depends on the level of automation you want... to have a touch screen interface to mimic discreet PIDs doesn't make much sense. But to have it display an automated control system and all it's respective elements is a good use of its flexibility.

 

[ITV]

Below is a my reply on another post regarding automation of PID controllers vs PLC's:

I've been designing/programming industrial controls (for the power plant industry) for the past 30 years. As mentioned when using PLC's the costs add up by adding automated valves, analog input modules, transmitters, etc. If you opt to add an HMI you have added cost of the HMI unit and associated software but gain the advantage of having more information available (status of pumps, valves, temperatures, etc.) and can have a menu system setup for different styles of beer.

What most people don't realize is the life cycle of PLC's and HMI's. By life cycle I am referring to when the manufacture no longer manufacture parts or provides support for the hardware. For HMI's the life cycle also includes the windows operating system used for windows based units as well as the programming software. PLC's typically have a 15 year life cycle and HMI's usually have a 7 year life cycle, HMI's have a shorter life cycle mainly due to the windows based hardware platform becomes obsolete which is also related to the software used to program the HMI. There are options to upgrade the HMI software, however if it doesn't support the hardware platform then you have to upgrade both.

Over the years I get involved with control upgrades for our systems but there are still a handful of relay based control systems that are still working after 75 years.

I plan on designing a control panel for my 2 BBL electric RIMS system and I am leaning on using the non-PID based controller (ezboil) since I feel that a PID controller is overkill for the home brewery application. I also plan on using old fashioned switches, lights and pushbuttons for control. I however will use a variable frequency drive (VFD) to adjust the speed of my recirc pump. This also will allow me to feed the VFD with 220V single phase power and the VFD will provide the pump the needed 3-phase power.

 

[kal]

This has been something I wrestled with a lot.... both having advantages...

Exactly. Neither is better or worse (even though the first one in the picture is mine ). It really depends on YOUR needs.

I get asked all the time why I chose what I did on my panel, so I put together some of the thought process that went into it and why I chose it over (say) a touchscreen approach (something I also looked at very close). Like ITV, I also have a background in plant floor system design and life cycle was one my biggest concerns when building a panel. My thoughts here.

Whichever direction you chose, good luck with the build!

Kal

 

[passedpawn]

Exactly. Neither is better or worse (even though the first one in the picture is mine ). It really depends on YOUR needs.

I get asked all the time why I chose what I did on my panel, so I put together some of the thought process that went into it and why I chose it over (say) a touchscreen approach (something I also looked at very close). Like ITV, I also have a background in plant floor system design and life cycle was one my biggest concerns when building a panel. My thoughts here.

Whichever direction you chose, good luck with the build!

Kal

Thanks kal. I think I'm choosing a middle ground. I don't want to rely on a tablet or other screen like that. However, I don't want to go with 7-segment displays because they are a fixed color, and gennerally aren't flexible with what they display.

So, I think I'm going to put several small LCD or possible OLED displays on the back of my PCB. My enclosure will just have clear windows (possibly a membrane overlay) to allow these displays to be viewed. Something like the following. Lets me go with several lines of simple digits of any size or color I like. I'll put 3 or 4 on there, each one representing what a timer or PID or similar control would have done.

 

[BrunDog]

I suppose life cycle is an important argument for process control systems if you are gonna wring the heck out of it for many years... but if you are going to upgrade, change, tune, improve, simplify, complicate, etc... then flexible controls is the way to go, IMO.

 

[highland_brewer]

It sounds to me like if you're able to design your own PID you would probably be happier with the BCS option as it will allow you to do some more programming which it appears to be a hobby for you as well.

I thought about the BCS option in mine but it came down to the fact i wanted more hands on with my process. Don't me wrong I definitely think they are a great option.

My $.02

Cheers!

 

[dyqik]

BTW, the touch screen on my Google smartphone and the trackpad and touchscreen on my Dell laptop really don't respond well with wet fingers. Something to consider in a brewery...

 

[kal]

BTW, the touch screen on my Google smartphone and the trackpad and touchscreen on my Dell laptop really don't respond well with wet fingers. Something to consider in a brewery...

Correct. Those are capacitive screens and they do not work well (or not at all) when moisture is present.

When I used to design using touchscreen in a plant floor environment where moisture and gloves are used, I'd use resistive screens with added protection. (Not cheap).

Kal

 

[passedpawn]

It sounds to me like if you're able to design your own PID you would probably be happier with the BCS option as it will allow you to do some more programming which it appears to be a hobby for you as well.

I thought about the BCS option in mine but it came down to the fact i wanted more hands on with my process. Don't me wrong I definitely think they are a great option.

My $.02

Cheers!

I like the idea of the big screen for visibility into what the hardware is doing, but definitely not for control. Like you say, touchscreens aren't so good with sticky fingers.

 

[ryanryates]

I guess I'll weigh in here as I went through this same thought process and build over the last two years. My previous panel was a PID based system which worked well - ran my brewery and helped me make wort. My intention was to 1) increase opportunities for automation, 2) increase process ease of use, 3) allow for future expandability, and 4) optimize technology (I'm techie).

I integrated the BCS-462 as the back end of the system and used a Raspberry Pi to run the front end with touchscreen controls. More details can be found here on the build thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=541671

I have been able to streamline my process, reduce chance of brewing errors, increase efficiency, and reduce brewday time with this setup. The use of automated ball valves in addition to automated heat and pump control allows the brew process easily move from strike, to mash, sparge, boil, knockout, etc. with little to no operator requirements.

Kal mentions notable concerns over capacitive touchscreen and moisture which could be problematic in certain environments - I have had not had any problems with mine.

Regarding concerns over system failure during a brew session - I decided to wire the system in a way that would allow me to control the brewery in manual mode if necessary. If somehow my BCS went down, I can manually turn on heat and pumps.

Lastly, there is so much talent and experience represented here on the forum. Ideas for my brewery could never have been accomplished without "borrowing" ideas and wisdom from the good people here on HBT. Good luck.

 

[passedpawn]

Lastly, there is so much talent and experience represented here on the forum. Ideas for my brewery could never have been accomplished without "borrowing" ideas and wisdom from the good people here on HBT. Good luck.

I know! I started brewing before this place existed. Did some seriously stupid stuff. This forum changed my world.

Have you wondered what the homebrew world would be like if this place went away tomorrow? I know other forums exist, but the breadth and depth of the HBT knowledgebase, especially with respect to equipment builds, dwarfs them.

Thanks for the comments. I'm building mine to be able to run without a remote display, but I'm adding features that will allow visibility and possible control on a tablet or PC.

 

[kal]

Have you wondered what the homebrew world would be like if this place went away tomorrow? I know other forums exist, but the breadth and depth of the HBT knowledgebase, especially with respect to equipment builds, dwarfs them.

Agreed! It's why I renew my membership every year! This is pretty much my 'go to' brewing forum.

Kal

 

[ryanryates]

I know! I started brewing before this place existed. Did some seriously stupid stuff. This forum changed my world.

Have you wondered what the homebrew world would be like if this place went away tomorrow? I know other forums exist, but the breadth and depth of the HBT knowledgebase, especially with respect to equipment builds, dwarfs them.

Thanks for the comments. I'm building mine to be able to run without a remote display, but I'm adding features that will allow visibility and possible control on a tablet or PC.

So, one of the other great advantages to the BCS system is that I can control the entire operation from multiple devices. For example, I am an early brewer. I set my alarm to wake up early, use my smartphone to turn on the element and recirc pump to heat my strike water. By the time I get up, dressed, coffee, etc. my strike water is on its way to temp.

Another example, I can program my recipe (times, temps, etc) from my office pc - rather than on the brewery touchscreen interface.

Lastly, (not that I use this feature, but I could if I wanted) with IP forwarding, I can access my BCS from anywhere in the world. If I wanted to start a brew session from my office PC at work - it's possible. A better use for this access feature is for remote monitoring and control of fermentation vessels and glycol system.

So many possibilities!