Contamination or oxidation or maybe both?

[SwedishBrew]

Dear all brewers!

I have now been brewing beer for a little more than 6 months and I can’t really make it. A few times I had a similar aftertaste that I can’t really explain, but sometimes, it has been fine. Lately my beer had a nice orange color right after fermentation and in the bottle. I usually taste the beer directly and then it tastes really nice and hoppy (I usually make IPA), but after a week it becomes brownish in color and I get a completely different, very skewed taste (Hard to describe, like sour vinegar taste?) similar to the taste I had before but it was not a lot stronger and seems to be worse each day.


Do you think it can be something wrong when bottling, or is it something else? Since it tastes good immediately after fermentation… I usually bottle directly from the fermentation bucket right down into bottles with boiled sugar solution and then cap as soon as possible.

Another question, when you bottle directly from the fermentation bucket, what do you do with the water lock then? It will be suction and the water goes down into the fermentation bucket, but if you remove the water lock, then you expose the beer to air?

Thanks in advance for all the help I can get!

 

[RM-MN]

The only way to avoid air exposure when bottling from a bucket is to provide CO2 to replace the volume of beer you bottle by adding it through the airlock hole. It isn't really an option for most of us.

Are you using a bottling wand or just letting the beer splash into the bottles from the spigot? Oxygen does not dissolve into water very fast without agitation. If you let the beer splash into the bottles the addition of a bottling wand (and a short piece of tubing to connect it to the spigot) will probably solve the problem. The brownish color is an indicator of oxidizing. It will affect hoppy beers faster than the others but will be a problem with all beers.

 

[SwedishBrew]

Hi,

I use a siphon tube (maybe bottling wand is the correct word) with a valve which opens when you tap it to the bottom of the bottle, so there is no splashing. I have the oxidation as my primary suspect, but can't really see how I can do it any better, besides the CO2 as you mentioned. There is no splash and I cap the beer as soon as I can and there are few times when the beer actually hasn't turned brown at all. I am really puzzled, cause last time I was really careful and try my best to not expose it to air, but yet it failed. Does it seem reasonable that my issues is with bottling, or rather the brewing process itself?

 

[Ragman]

Does the bottling wand work without removing the lid? Are you dry hopping? Also where do you add the sugar solution? Directly into the fermenting bucket or to each individual bottle/

 

[SwedishBrew]

Hi,

Regarding bottling wand, do you refer to the lid of the fermentation bucket? Yes, I don't need to remove it, but there is a hole for the water lock. I also dry hop, I did it a weak or so before I bottled the beer. Lastely, I add the sugar solution right into the bottles, before I add the beer.

 

[Ragman]

How long are you letting it ferment before bottling? Also how long after the last dry hop addition do you let it ferment? Sounds like you are doing everything you can to keep oxygen out even tho the results you are stating are similar to what I have had due to oxygen getting into the brew.

 

[khannon]

It sounds almost like both oxidation and infection.. "(Hard to describe, like sour vinegar taste?) similar to the taste I had before but it was not a lot stronger and seems to be worse each day. " is the part that says infection and not oxidation to me. But the color darkening is often oxidation.

Some things that might help a little with oxidation.
O2 absorbing/barrier caps need to get wet in order to activate(or so I'm told) hit them with a spray of star-san?

liquid sugar, I used to like to do it in the bottling bucket, dissolve and boil the sugars, I would add that to the bottling bucket, then transfer the beer via siphoning from a hose, letting it swirl not splash, then give it a quick swirl with a sanitized long spoon.

When you bottle, are there bubbles in the bottling wand/hose? you could easily aerate beer at that stage.

Are you "cold crashing?" if so, you may be introducing O2 through suckback.

You could also be dry hopping after an optimal point in fermentation, try dry-hopping earlier? some yeasts are monsters and have done the bulk of fermentation in a few days.

Infection stuff..
Are you fermenting in a bottling bucket or one with a spigot? or even if transferring, take that sucker apart as best you can and make sure it gets cleaned and sanitized. Take the bottling wand apart as well. I have a dedicated toothbrush to use on parts like this.

If you are using plastic buckets, are there scrapes or scratches? if so best course is to replace them, and make sure the scrubbers you use to clean don't scratch the plastic.

Make doubly sure the bottles are clean, hit them with star-san before bottling

I also keep (a few) spray bottle(s) of star-san solution. Everything gets hit with star-san..

Just the thoughts off the top of my head.

 

[SwedishBrew]

Thanks for your replies,

I forgot to add a detail, some bottles are getting darker brown color than others. But the taste of hops are definitely gone in all of them that I have tried.

Also, I brew 20 - 25 liter batches in a 30 liter fermentation bucket, with a siphon. I used Safale 04 and last time I had a FG of 1.046. I always pull apart the siphon and clean each part thoroughly.

Last time, I fermented for a total of 20 days and I dry hopped after about 7 days. My OG was a bit lower than I had initially expected, so I added some sugar solution with dry hopping, this of course made it ferment longer than I thought. I was planning for about 14 days of fermentation, but it just kept bubbling in the water lock, eventually, I took the beer when FG was 1,01 and there was 4 - 5 minutes between each bubbles. But the beer itself tasted awesome after fermentation, so that would make me conclude nothing is wrong before that, but maybe I am mistaken?

Regarding using a bottling bucket, what is the advantage of that? Besides that you get an equal distribution of sugar solution to all of the beer, anything else? Don't you risk of exposing the beer to oxygen then if you move to another bucket?

Regarding the bottling wand, there are no bubbles in the wand. Actually, due to dry hopping, the valve sometimes get clogged and I have to remove it and clean it before using it again. But then I close everything down and just reattach the bottling wand.

When it comes to when to dry hop, I usually go after the amounts of bubbles, is there any way to tell? FG?

I do not do cold crashing either, mostly due to my great fear of oxidation.

Regarding the fermentation bucket, I inspected my last one and I couldn't really see some scratches, I used WTP to clean it, but since I had to rinse it, I have now purchased a Sanipro, which doesn't require that. Also, for my next batch, I have a new bucket.

What I might suspect, I have been lenient on the bottles. I usually rinse them right after usage, then on bottling day, I put them in bath of disinfectant, then rinse, then into oven of 150 degrees celsius. But I have now purchased a bottle brush, so will clean them more for next time.

What about the hot aeration while cooling, can it be an issue? I use water bath with a hell of a lot ice, but it takes some time, will purchase a cooler soon. But wouldn't I have noticed that while tasting the beer right after fermentation?

 

[schmurf]

Did you mean OG of 1.046? If FG... then something is wrong.

I don't use a siphon myself but I'm wondering if there is a misunderstanding here... you have the lid closed? don't you open the lid and stick the siphon in?

When I used to bottle I prefered to have a spigot on the fermenter and attached the bottling wand to that. I used a syringe to add sugar solution to the bottles, but carbonation drops would be easier.

Sour taste makes me think of infection, either by porly clean/sanitizing routines or a scratch in the fermenter

 

[SwedishBrew]

Yes, I meant OG 1.046

I believe it's my poor english causing the misunderstanding. I have this arrangement. With the tube connected there to the bottom tap.

 

[schmurf]

Yes that's what I suspected you had. If I were you I would check that fermenter for any scratches on the inside, to see if there's any place something bad can cling on to. Are you using both a cleaner and a sanitizer on the fermenter, bottling wand and bottles?
When bottling, open the lid some before starting. If I were you I wouldn't bother if the beer is exposed to some air at this point, it's the way it's been done for many years when these kinds of fermenter is used. It's better than having the water in the air lock being sucked into the beer. Make sure to cap the bottles as soon as possible.

 

[Ragman]

I thought the same thing about the lid - thinking popping the lid off was better than air getting sucked in through the "water lock" hole.

 

[BackoftheNet]

I used to get an off flavour in every beer which I tasted in every bottle of home brew mine and that my friends made too.

Found a tip and wish I remembered who to thank but it has eliminated the weird "tang".

Use a bottling bucket with your priming sugar in it before transferring the beer.

Rather than capping straightaway I leave the caps loosely on top of the bottle and stand them in order they were bottled.

Then I clean up the fermenter etc and about half hour later I use the capper. This seems to allow co2 agitated by the bottling process and maybe from new fermentation to purge some of the oxygen in the headspace. Fermentation in the bottle gets rid of some more oxygen.

In addition you can try leaving say 1cm headspace only.

I have also added a tiny amount of sodium meta bisulphate to the last one and that has transformed my latest hoppy IPA . So I will carry on with that.

 

[SwedishBrew]

I also heard that with the bottle cap, I will also try that for next time! Just hope it has the desired effect How long do you keep the beer and sugar solution before bottle it? What does the sodium meta bisulphate?

I use both cleaner and sanitizer, and now I also have a new bucket for my next brew!

Right now, it doesn't seems like the beer got so much darker, so perhaps it's contamination we are seeing? Of course, there is a touch of oxidation I have to eliminate. But if I get this right, just leaving the beer in open air for a short air doesn't hurt so much, as long as you don't splash or kind of force down air into the liquid?

How would you expect the contamination/oxidation to taste like? Would any of them leave the hop flavor intact but just kind of give some additional off taste?

 

[SwedishBrew]

By the way, the color change, first picture to the left is from fermentation (This was the bottom of the barrel), second is a couple of days after bottlign and the last is today. But not all bottles have this brown color, which is strange.



.

 

[mattdee1]

I hate to be a downer, but I say this based on a fair bit of personal experience and frustration: if you're bottling your beer from a bucket, don't even bother with IPA. If you move to kegging, there are lots of little tricks you can use to vastly improve your IPA, but with bottling there is just too much O2 exposure due to the nature of the process.

So that's my take on the darkening color and the loss of hop character. The "vinegar" taste - if that is indeed an accurate descriptor - is a whole other issue; likely some kind of infection. It's often said that once you get an infection in a plastic vessel, it's very difficult to properly sanitize it for re-use. I don't know if that's true or not because I've only ever had one infected batch and I just replaced all plastic cold-side gear.

Maybe try some other style that is not heavily dependent on delicate hop aroma (e.g. amber, stout) and see if you get good results.

 

[Mtrhdltd]

Due to the variable results, and what you have said, I don't think you are cleaning your bottles. I would soak all of them in a bleach solution for 24 hours, then clean and sanitize before bottling. They should look pristine before sanitizing, if not you are not sanitizing them effectively. Just my idea.

 

[BackoftheNet]

I clean bottles with Wilko's own brand oxi clean spray and rinse them a few times and sanitize in bottling day . Never had a problem.

I leave the caps loosely on the bottles for at least 30 mins plus I'm capping the oldest ones first.

SMB reacts with the oxygen and takes it out of the beer . There is a very slight sulphur smell for the 1st week or two but my last IPA is still the same colour after 6 weeks and had an amazing hop aroma that hasn't changed so yes it's quite possible to make hoppy IPA and condition in a bottle. I've done it

 

[SwedishBrew]

For my next brew tomorrow, I have a new fermentation bucket, which I will clean and sanitize like crazy. I will also use a new sanitizer, Sanipro rinse, which doesn't need rinsing. Then of course take your advice on more thoroughly bottle cleaning and sanitation, checking the bottling wand for bubbles and then the trick of leaving the bottle caps for 30 minutes before bottling. I will keep you posted on the results

Some other considerations, hot aeration during wort cooling, would that be likely? I use ice bath with salt for cooling the wort.

Also, shaking the fermentation bucket, I did it once. 2 - 3 days after dry hopping to let it get more contact, could that be a major issue?

 

[schmurf]

Also, shaking the fermentation bucket, I did it once. 2 - 3 days after dry hopping to let it get more contact, could that be a major issue?

Shaking is a big no.

 

[SwedishBrew]

Shaking is a big no.

Ok got it

 

[NGD]

@SwedishBrew I may have missed it, but are you brewing using all grain or extract? If you are using extract there are a few easy ways to more quickly cool your brew.

To your question about the airlock sucking back, there are ways to capture CO2 during fermentation and save it for when you bottle or cold crash.

 

[khannon]

If I had to put money on it though, odds are good that your infection starts at that spigot that you attach the hose to. I would strongly suggest that between each brew, you disassemble that entirely from the bucket, take it apart as best you can, clean it really well, even use a bleach solution, make sure to actuate the spigot in the solution(open and close) a few times. If you use bleach, make sure to rinse well, and let it thoroughly dry(2-3 days), and rinse it again before using.
Bleach can cause other problems in brewing especially in contact with wort or stainless steel, so use with caution, but it also kills almost anything, so it's a good way to be sure.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

Watch this video on bottling oxidation as it may shed some light on what may going wrong with your process. Using PET bottles and squeezing the air from the head space is a great best practice.

 

[SwedishBrew]

@SwedishBrew I may have missed it, but are you brewing using all grain or extract? If you are using extract there are a few easy ways to more quickly cool your brew.

To your question about the airlock sucking back, there are ways to capture CO2 during fermentation and save it for when you bottle or cold crash.

Nice! I will definitely try something like that, both convenient and seems quite cheap! Would definitely need it as well!

Also I do both grain and extract brewing, I start with grain, about 4 kilos grain, then add an extra amount of extract to get up the percentage.

khannon I actually do detach the spigot and clean it thoroughly in a bleach solution, Coobra WPT. But I am a bit worried that I might contaminate the spigot once more when I handle the fermentation bucket, I will now try the Sanipro, to create foam and stuff around and inside the spigot while the fermentation is ongoing. Will do as again before bottling next time. But I get I have to clean even more thoroughly next time!

Holden Caulfield interesting video! I will definitely give it a shot, he actually gets the same kind of color on his beer as I do, speaking of the "wrong" bottling! Thanks. But first before I buy pet bottles, I will try with some oxygen absorbing caps and not shake the bottles! Kind of makes me a little bit upset that everyone tells you to shake the bottles, when now it kind of feels obvious not to do it