contamination again and again...

[MARCELO178]

I used a plastic carboy for fermenter, than I had my first contamination. I Threw away the carboy and got another one. I had some good beers and the contamination happened again. So I Threw away the other carboy. It happened again. I changed the carboy for a bucket with airlock and tap (now I would not use the siphon). The beer should go from the fermenter to bottle to avoid contamination.
I did a good belgian tripel, But after that again contamination in a 3,6% ABV mild.
Before someone ask about my cleaning I would say that it was not so good in the begining, but now I clean like a maniac, I Boil the tap, airlock, and all small parts, I put everything in Peracetic acid including the bucket, I brush everything (bottles, small parts...). I also use alcohol 70% in everything.

Please someone help me! I am about to Quit homebrewing!

 

[badlee]

Are you by any chance making yeast starters?
It could be that something is getting into them.
Or
Do you take hydro readings in the bucket? If you do,there is a chance that this is how you are picking up infections.

 

[flars]

I did some quick reading about Peracetic acid. It seems to have a very short shelf life. Some users have said 3 to 6 months for concentrate and 1 hour to 5 days for the dilution. In dilution the PA breaks down into various compounds. Of the compounds hydrogen peroxide is the sanitizer.
PA comes in different concentrations. From what I read 5% seems to be the norm. Have seen a dilution rate of 1:100 and up to 1:260. No advice which is best since I have not used it.

Could the age of your PA concentrate or age of the dilute solution be the part of the contamination problem?

If this is ruled out describe your general clean up procedure, and time frame, for your equipment, getting it ready for storage, after racking a new beer from the fermentor to the bottling bucket and bottling. Is there sufficient time for gunk to dry in the equipment?

Generally I would rule out the fermentor as the cause of the infection.

Where or when does the infection make itself known. Is it with the final gravity sample from the fermentor or after time in the bottle?

 

[MARCELO178]

I don´t take any readings, I am so affraid of contamination that I don´t open the bucket at all!
I use dry Yeast and open directly in the bucket. I make 2 gallons(7-8 L). could it be a problem? I clean the yeast package with alcohol 70%.
I am not worring about things before boiling, should I worry?

 

[MARCELO178]

My PA is brand new. Before I used bleach.

I decided to throw away my bucket, and after cleaning and sanitize the bottles
I will put them oven!

 

[danath34]

can you describe what tells you it's an infection?

 

[flars]

I don´t take any readings, I am so affraid of contamination that I don´t open the bucket at all!
I use dry Yeast and open directly in the bucket. I make 2 gallons(7-8 L). could it be a problem? I clean the yeast package with alcohol 70%.
I am not worring about things before boiling, should I worry?

The items you boil will be sanitized by the boil. You just need to make sure these items are clean before the boil.

Some info on alcohol as a sanitizer.
Alcohol - Alcohol is an effective sanitizer. However, although alcohol kills most yeast and bacteria on contact it is quite ineffective against some spore-forming microbes (Fix and Fix, 1997). Fix and Fix also note that low molecular weight alcohols such as methyl are not effective sanitizers whereas high molecular weight alcohols such as isopropyl are quite effective. Ethanol is nearly as effective a sanitizer as isopropyl is. Contrary to what one might think 100% alcohol (200 proof) is not as effective a sanitizer as an alcohol having 20-30% water (i.e. 70-80% alcohol or 140-160 proof). Without the presence of water, alcohol cannot denature certain proteins present in microbes, thereby diminishing its sanitization power (Fix and Fix, 1997).

The most popular types of alcohol used for sanitation are ethyl and isopropyl. Methyl can be used, but is often not, because it is less effective and toxic. Generally a solution of 70% alcohol and 30% water make the best sanitizer than 100% alcohol. Alcohol will kill most bacterial organisms in less than five minutes, but it is best to let items soak at least 10 minutes to kill the stubborn ones. Isopropyl alcohol (better known as rubbing alcohol) is the most effective of the three and is the most common.

Could insufficient wet contact time using alcohol be part of the problem?

How long do you have your beers in the primary?
What kind of yeast did you use for one of the infected batches?
What temperature was the wort in the first three days of fermentation?
Does your beer after bottle conditioning taste bad and gush after chilling for a few days? Or does it just taste bad?

 

[MARCELO178]

Anwser the first question: My beers have this sour taste, almost salty, I know some beers have taste a little sour but it is not strong, and in a mild sour taste is not very normal. Is there any ingredient that can give this taste to the beer if old?

About the alcohol. I use alcohol after the cleanning and sanitation, I brush everything with soup, boil, use PA, then alcohol.

 

[MARCELO178]

I am fermenting 7 days in the bucket, than bottle.
that might be a problem because the temperature is about 25 C or 77 F.
I had infections with fermentis dry yeast batches, T58, S04, and S33.
I never had a problem with danstar nottinghan... but might be because I brew english style beer with lots of hops.
About the taste, All the infected beers taste sour.

 

[kh54s10]

Sour could be something in your brewing process that has nothing to do with an infection. What temperature is the wort during the fermentation period.

I don't know what flavors might be imparted by your sanitizer. In the US, Starsan and Iodaphor are the most popular sanitizers.

Control your fermentation temperatures in the lower end of the yeasts range and try a different sanitizer and see if that solves the problem.

I would venture a guess that it is not the carboys or the buckets that are your problem.

 

[Demus]

The good news, I doubt it a sanitizing problem given your description of excessive cleaning.
The bad news, it must be in some other process! In my experience, NOTHING ensures good beer more than quality fermentation. A healthy pitch of active yeast into a properly chilled and aerated wort can even prevent infection from competing organisms. The off favors you describe sound more fermentation related. Have you read "Yeast" by any chance? Great read and for me, nothing improved my beers more than understanding the actual makers of beer!!

 

[j1n]

Why don't you use a no rinse sanitizer like starsan or iodophor.

 

[flars]

I am fermenting 7 days in the bucket, than bottle.
that might be a problem because the temperature is about 25 C or 77 F.
I had infections with fermentis dry yeast batches, T58, S04, and S33.
I never had a problem with danstar nottinghan... but might be because I brew english style beer with lots of hops.
About the taste, All the infected beers taste sour.

SO-4 fermentation temperature: 12-25°C (53.6-77°F) ideally 15-20°C (59-68°F)

T-58 fermentation temperature: 12-25°C (53.6-77°F) ideally 15-20°C (59-68°F)

S-33 fermentation temperature: 12-25°C (53.6-77°F) ideally 15-20°C (59-68°F)

Danstar Notty fermentation temperature range of this strain is 14° to 21°C (57° to 70°F)

Your fermentation temperature is high for all the bad tasting batches. You could use a swamp cooler to loser the fermentation temperature for the first three days of the fermentation.

7 days of primary time is short. Cool your fermentations and leave the beer in the primary for two weeks. This will give the yeast time to clean up the natural off flavors of fermentation. 7 days may be fine for small batches, but the two weeks will be an experiment to get rid of the off flavor.

How long are you bottle conditioning before the first taste? 77° is an okay temperature for bottle conditioning. Green beer, not conditioned long enough, can have an off flavors.

Do you rinse the soap used for cleaning very, very well before sanitizing?

 

[IslandLizard]

Why in the world are you throwing away carboys? Plastic ones can be cleaned and sanitized very effectively. Unless you know there's a nasty scratch there's no reason for this, and even those can be "remediated" or repurposed.

There's obviously a problem in your process.

 

[MindenMan]

Your process sounds solid along with your cleaning. 77* F is way too high to ferment at for almost all yeasts. I have made bad tasting batches back when I didn't have temperature control. You say 77* F, how and where are you taking this temperature from? It is possible your fermenter may be hotter than you realize.

 

[MARCELO178]

Many people is telling me it is not a contamination problem, something is wrong in the process. I really believe that!
I will try to eliminate everything that could be a problem. I will change my hops (the old ones), I have a small fridge, and temperature controller to install. I will control the temperature of fermentation. I just saw that I used some malts with expired validity (black malt).

If Is there anything I could be doing wrong let me know.

 

[IslandLizard]

Sanitation is also an important part of the whole "process."

You said in the OP you have a contamination problem, which is generally a statement related to [EDIT] infection, and manifest itself in sour and/or otherwise off-tasting beer. Everything that touches your wort and beer after it comes out of the boil kettle needs to be sanitized properly to kill or reduce micro-organisms, prevent them from entering and spoiling your beer.

Flavors associated with high fermentation temps and "green beer" are very different, and not sour. More strong solvent-like alcoholic flavors and smells, estery (fruity) and phenolic (spicy, cloves) aromas and flavors and what not, but never sour.

Old, improperly stored grain and hops will leave their own tastes and aromas, again differently from high ferm temps.

It can be a combination of all of the above. Fresh grain is a good start, but since your Trippel was fine, I doubt they are the real culprit. Lowering fermentation temps is fairly easy. For sanitation Starsan is awesome. If you can get a 16 or 32 oz bottle of Starsan (concentrate), it will last you years, the working solution is very stable and can be used for months or until totally depleted. Iodophor (or IO-Star) are a good 2nd choice.

 

[CanadianBacon]

Should consider replacing the plastic bucket with a new one, I get bad batch's with mine now and then too and i think its because its easy for bacteria to cling to them, so I wash mine 2-3 times along with LONG soaks then clean and sanitize 2 times now, I leave my star san in it for abit 1 hr and shake it every ten min with the lid on.. Think about how the smell of beer clings to plastic..... infection will too.


The big 10 gallon buckets make great storage for all your equipment when they reach a time to replace Or they are a good laundry hamper/garbage can....Or you can just sell its on Kijiji for 5-10$...

I never had problems with infections till i used plastic...... My dad used plastic buy used them ONLY 2 times, After that he used them for storage. Considering there 14 $ at save on foods I would use them less then 15 times then write them off.

 

[danath34]

count me in with those thinking it is something other than contamination. I also disagree that sour flavors cannot be part of green flavors or high fermentation temperature flavors. my first batch was a stout extract kit. I did no starter and had no temperature control other than choosing a cooler corner of the house. at a month after brew day it tasted sour. a month later the sourness was completely gone and it tasted great.

I believe you said you bottle after 7 days in primary. that combined with the high temperature and you're gonna get some weird flavors. I think if you used that temperature controller you mentioned to keep it in the mid 60's and waited at least 3 weeks before bottling, then gave it at least 2 more weeks in the bottle, it'll be great. good beer takes time.

 

[wayloncash]

By the sounds of it the "sour" you are experiencing is from Acetaldehyde. Acetaldehyde can cause the classic green apples although it can also come across like a cidery-vinegar or sour like flavor. This is caused by prematurely removing the yeast, lack of oxygen and or premature flocculation. Your cleaning/sanitizing process sounds solid.

I would try this:

1) Let your yeast sit longer. If you are not taking OG and FG readings it will be harder to tell when the yeast are done. If you do not want to take FG readings then let it sit for 2-3 weeks. Should be fine (depending on starting gravity). I prefer to take a couple FG readings to ensure yeast activity is complete although I have just let beer sit for 2-3 weeks, both with great results. I would also lower the ferment temps. I prefer to ferment near the bottom of the suggested temp range and allow it to go longer if necessary. There have been good studies done showing the benefits of a colder fermentation, quality, smoothness, etc..

2) Attempt to aerate your wort better. Shaking, injecting O2, etc.. I use one of the aquarium pumps to oxygenate my wort. Also, try using a yeast starter and ensure you have healthy viable yeast.

3) Star san works wonders.

 

[MARCELO178]

thanks everyone for the help!
I really liked the last explanations about sour taste. I had real contamination in the carboy era, some bottles exploded, some beer went out of the bottles.
This last time I had sour beer, it had low carbonation, the mild (last one)
almost did not have head. So I think it could be a combination of low O2 for yeast, short time of aging, inappropriate temperature, old grain and hops.
Sounds like recipe for a **** beer... but not contaminated beer. It makes me really relieved!
Thanks againg!
keep posting more!