Consumer to Production

[TXCrash]

Don't be sorry for posting this thread. If you go for it we'd all be interested in watching your build progress.

But: Don't do it to save money, and if you're breaking the law by exceeding statutory limits keep it on the down low. We're just very vocal here because we've seen noobs jump in head first and drown.

 

[Pangea]

Wow, I am soooo glad I could start a thread where politics was the theme. If this forum is about ranting, hating and persecuting then I have obviously made a poor choice, and I am sorry. Honestly, this thread was about a newbie going from consumer to producer, but I can already tell this is a hostile enviroment if the newbie only wants to produce beer. I was very careful to post in the "introduce yourself forum" first and "test the waters". I recieved comments like "relax", "this is a friendly place". Obviously I am a trouble maker and I need to go somehere else. I would like to apologize for the disturbance I have caused, and I would ask the admins to delete this entire thread. I promise I will not return. I wish everyone here good tidings, and hold no malice toward any; but again, please delete this thread; nothing but ugliness is coming from it.

With Warm Regards,

Fish

WTF are you talking about?

Yeah, what are you talking about Fish? You asked for advice and you've received about 4 pages of it. Some encouraging and some not. Not sure what ugliness you're referring too. Some folks (me included) think that what you're proposing isn't practical or doesn't make sense. Others say go for it, spend the dough and buy/build a gigantic system with no prior brewing experience. My advice would be to spend a smaller amount on a starter system to get familiar with techniques and what process steps you really need, to know what larger equipment you'd need when you're ready to scale up.

 

[TXCrash]

Ya know... lehr spent a bunch of time and I presume money building a gorgeous all SS brew rig before ever brewing. He got some crap from some here but also got a lot of "wow that's awesome". You're kinda getting the same. He's asked for advice and gotten it and I think we all deeply respect him for both the build quality of his rig and the fact that he had the courage to jump in head first without really knowing what he was doing.

None of us have told you not to build your 30 gallon rig or brew 200 gallons per household. Frankly, none of us care how much you brew as long as you're not openly bragging about going way over the statutory limit. We've simply cautioned you to test the waters first because, frankly, $8,000 is a lot of money for most of us. I hope you start brewing and stick around - there's a lot to learn. This is a great hobby and if you enjoy the time producing beer then there's certainly an economic benefit to brewing. If it's a task, however, there's very little economic benefit.

Here's the rig I'd build - which would require a weekly brew or could be doubled. Note that prices are kinda pulled outta my bum - they'll vary.

Wet
3 sankey kegs - lets say you legally aquire them for $30 each. $90
3 weldless fitting sets at $20 each $60
DIY manifold for MLT - $20
March pump $120
DIY counterflow chiller $80
20' silicone hose $40
Quick disconnects $60
DIY mash paddle $10
Autosiphon $15
4 sankeys to ferment and serve from $120
wet subtotal: $615

Heat supply/monitor
2 Burners already on stands $200
Thermometer $20
we'll presume you already have propane
Heat subtotal: $220

fridge from craigslist $50
Thermostat for same fridge $50
Fermentation temp subtotal: $100


Total: $935 your payback time is now substantially shorter and since this is a hobby and you enjoy what you're doing your time costs nothing - meaning that there is now an economic benefit to brewing. Rig depreciation will be negligible and when you decide you enjoy brewing and the beer you produce you can step up and sell pieces of your rig to other homebrewers for close to what you have invested.

 

[CodeRage]

Fish,
I don't believe the hostility is directed at you. Some topics such as the annual limit per household comes up and there is a bit of bickering amongst the veterans about what is right/wrong. You're not the target, the subject just happened to come up because of the 500 gal limit you proposed earlier. And honestly, it's mostly people looking out for your well being.
You think this is bad, you should see the arguments about electrical codes and the correct way to wire electrical control systems for electric rigs. It gets pretty heated. At the end of the day though I would sit and have a beer with any one of these members, they really are great people who care, some more passionately than others.
As for producing your own beer but not as a hobby, I don't think any one is offended by it. Their is efficiency in large volume, including time, but that batches you are talking about you can just about mark off a full day for brewing and a half a day for kegging. That is quite a bit of time to commit too, if it were me I would want to be spending that time doing something I enjoy, not a chore like mowing the lawn. It could very well grow on you and become something you do enjoy.
You could consider testing the waters and do a few 5 gallon batches using a brew in bag technique. It's pretty inexpensive and doesn't require much in the way of equipment. Looking at your budget, consider using %0.025 of it for research and run a few test batches. If you make a few less than desirable beers at 40 gallons a pop it could get frustrating. In addition to that you may have a few less friends coming by and draining your kegs .

This site is pretty friendly to noobs but you are asking for advice on building a small scale brewery and most of us do 5 to 10 gallons at a time. It's like going to a row boat forum asking how to build the titanic with no experience. It really is quite an undertaking amd there really aren't that many people here who work with those kinds of volumes.

If you have got the time, money, and ambition to do it, go for it. I would love to see a barrel and a half home brew rig, plus I have a bit of an affinity for build threads.

I wish you the best of luck in what ever you decide to do and keep us informed.

 

[shortyjacobs]

northernlad,

perhaps I was strong in my last post, rest assured it is NOT drama i want, drama is exactly what I do not want. I really just wanted some advice, and I recieved that, and while I am taking it under advisement, it is not what I had hoped for. None of that is what upset me. Obviously I am out of line for being upset that my thread degeneraded into a late 70's malpropism....



I mean no disrespect to a member with 16,900 posts. Obviously I am the one out of line. I am offering my appologies, and a quick release. If I have misconstrued something then please enlighten me, otherwise encourage the deletion of this thread and move forward.

I do not know how else I can say I am sorry for having posted this thread.

Fish

Fish, I think you took Revvy's comment as criticism of you. It wasn't. Someone had mentioned to you the 100/200 gallon limit, and someone else asked where that limit came from. Revvy responded with information about the limit.

None of that "chatter" was about you....in fact it was really just semi off topic chit chat between other people in this thread...I don't think ANYONE here is throwing politics at you to convince you not to brew!

I for one want you to stick around, and want you to persue this. God knows I don't have the money to attack it, and I love the "go big or go buy Mich" attitude you have.

You are getting a bunch of people saying "don't do it"...but you asked for their opinions, right? Honestly, this isn't the type of project 95% of the folks on here would ever think of attempting....it IS a huge undertaking, and you ARE very ambitious to take it on....which is all the more reason I want to see how you see it through!

Cheers man...stick around and teach us all a lesson!

 

[dantodd]

I have been reading about brewing for several weeks now. I have yet to sterilize, heat, pitch or rack anything, but I have a few questions none-the-less.

I would suggest starting small. Partially because you will want to become familiar with the process more intimately than simple reading will allow.
You will also want a smaller scale brewery to work on your recipes before making large batches, the expense of the small brewery would be paid for in just ingredients from one ruined (or simply disliked) batch of 40 gallons. You'll probably want to have a "pilot brewery" for adding new recipes later too.

In my town we have a "brew on premises" shop that will let you brew your own recipe with their equipment. You could potentially use a shop like this for recipe development and to start practicing actual brewing with less risk of losing a full batch and with an experienced brewer along side to help.

I have kept beer "On Tap" since the early 80s. I am quite familiar with the dispensing side of beer. I want to add another step to the process; that is, I want to brew the beer prior to dispensing it. I am not actively pursuing a new hobby, so my current perspective on brewing is simply production of a quality product for household consumption.

Quality is certainly attainable but rarely with a first batch. I'm sure that whatever business you are in also requires some level of experience and practice to attain the proficiency to do it well. Brewing is the same way. It is much more like making a quality cake from scratch than making mac and cheese from a box.

My first questions center around the brew pot(s) and fermentor(s). Blichmann Engineering manufactures a 30 gallon and a 55 gallon brew pot for ~$700 and ~$800 respectively. This seems like a fairly reasonable price given the size and quality of construction. I could certainly convert a couple of sankey kegs into a pair of 15 gallon brew pots for ~$150 each, yeilding roughly the same simultaneous boil capacity of the Blichmann Engineering 30 gallon pot (~20 gallons) at a little less than 1/2 the price. I could likely also source a 55 gallon stainless steel drum for the same $300. Making a grain filter et al would bring the price up to ~$450; again, about half of the Blichmann 55 gallon pot. What I do NOT want to do is DIY AND then later need to purchase turn key. What are your thoughts about purchasing VS DIY?

You seem to have done an excellent job of identifying the issues and with your obvious planning skills I would have no doubt that either approach would work well for you. Since you really aren't interested in the hobby aspect it might be easier to go with the turn key solution because you'll have some support if something does not work exactly as planned.

Similarly, large conical bottom fermentors from Blichmann run from ~$900 for the 27 gallon to ~$1300 for the 42 gallon. I can source used 55 gallon plastic drums with sealing screw-off lids locally for ~$15/each. My inclination here is to DIY, but I would love some input from people who have attemted this type of fermentor. I would plan on having two lids for each fermentor, one for fermenting and one for CO2 transfer to kegs.

Seach out and read some of the threads here on home built conicals. The lid is one of the difficulties folks have had and rarely does a conical go together without significant later modifications. And these are typically built by experienced brewers who know what they like and want in a system. I would strongly urge you to go with a pre-made system and buy one model up from what you think you'll need here. You simply don't have the experience to know exactly which features you will end up using or needing.

My current plan is to construct two small, well-insulated, lockers for the fermentors. Each locker would have independent temperature control from 32F to Ambient. Keg storage would be in two separate lockers, again with independent temperature control. I plan to use a single large capacity, chest type freezer as a heat sink. The freezer will contain ~30 gallons of glycol that can be pumped independently to a forced-air radiator in each locker. The lockers themselves will have 6-8 inch foam insulation, so other than a "pull down" in temperature, the heat load should be fairly low. I plan on making the fermentors air tight with a check valve for preventing pressure build up in the lockers. I estimate the cost of the lockers/storage to be ~$2500, including the freezer, pumps, glycol, radiators, fans and thermostats.
Does this sound like a "reasonable" approach to flexible fermenting/lagering set-up?

As long as you are building a cold room I'd suggest going with room air conditioning units rather than a chest freezer and glycol, it should be more efficient and will have many fewer spots for a leak to occur. Again you can leverage the experiences of experienced brewers by using the search feature (or even better, google site search) "BrewPastor" recently built a cold room and the thread is quite good.

I would like to build a counter-flow type heat exchanger for the transfer of the wort from the boil pot(s) to the fermentor(s). I have well water that is 68F year round. I have not done the math on this yet, but I am thinking a wort transfer rate of ~1gpm against a water flow of ~15gpm in a 50' coil of copper tubing encased in 10' of 6in PVC should remove most of the wort heat. I could certainly add a shorter, secondary heat exchanger using -10F glycol if the primary heat exchager proved insufficient. I could also slow the transfer rate of the wort. I really haven't worked this part out yet, so thoughts and advice are more than welcome.

I really don't know enough about chilling this size batch to be much help but if you are going to use glycol to chill you could probably use a jacketed conical and do a majority of the cooling in there and just dump the cold break before pitching.


How much thought have you put into your mashing process? Do you plan on building a mill? It as much as 50% on your grain bill to buy in bulk and mill yourself. If you are planning on using extract it will make consistency and quality that much more difficult to attain and will be much more expensive.

For example:
50lb of Dry Malt extract = $150
50lb 2 row milled = $65
50 lbs 2 row bulk = $35

 

[northernlad]

If you are planning on using extract it will make consistency and quality that much more difficult to attain and will be much more expensive

Isn't consistency one of the selling points of extract?

 

[bigdug]

Fish
Don't let the banter get to you we are for the most part one big (albeit slightly disfunctional) family.

Let me try to get to the point of most of the chatter and compare it to fishing (maybe another of your hobbies)

1) The levels you say you want to produce are illegal. not unlike creel and size limits in fishing if you are not going to follow them its best to keep it to yourself.

2) If you are looking to save money it probably aint gonna happen. ever been to the fish market after a day and realized the flounder you caught probably cost you about $200 a pound with equipment cost

3) Starting on the scale you are starting is unusual. Think of a guy who likes to eat mahi mahi and goes out and buys a fully equiped sportfisher.

4) Making beer is as much craft/art as science and there is a learning curve to producing good beer. Anyone on any given day can catch a trophy fish luck does play somtimes but to consistanly catch your target species takes time and practice.

I think the big thing is we are all passionate about this obssesion we have and think everyone should enjoy it.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Fish, I'm not going to delete this thread. I AM going to demand that it get back on track. Enough politics, bickering, and negativity.

 

[MikeScott]

I'm still a n00b, but personally, I would suggest starting small. Do a couple of 5 or 10 gallon batches, make sure you're still interested. I will admit though, I spent more than a little bit of time day dreaming about what I would do with $8000 for brewing equipment.

As for the hostility, I didn't really see any, especially not any directed at you. I've also seen a number of threads here where some chastized someone for a n00b mistake, and then they were corrected. This is a very helpful and friendly forum, and that's why I'm still around.

Good luck fish! Stick around and keep us posted! Maybe I can come over and play one day

 

[fish4fun]

The transformation of this thread is quite spectacular, and I would like to thank everyone who has taken the time to respond. I was certainly a bit flustered early on; perhaps as much a function of my consumption as any intent on the part of the contributors. I would like to apologize for any harshness in my previous post and move on to some of the very constructive posts.

curtis97322,

After all of the previous posts, I had pretty much decided to go the sankey route first. The only thing I seemed to miss was using sankey kegs to ferment and serve from. I will have to investigate this as I had pretty much decided that sanitising them was beyond the DITer, but it appears I have some more reading to do. As far as the "legal acquisition" of sankey kegs, my local distributor now requires a $50 deposit on all kegs. (I actually own a retail store and have State & Federal ABC permits, though this has NOTHING to do with my brewing endeavor.) At any given time I have 5 to 15 empty sankey kegs on hand. My inclination is to go with corny kegs for storage and serving, but I could be convinced to stick with sankey kegs.

Funny you should include a "March Pump", I had to replace one today! I replaced it with an Iwaki. The march pump had been in continuous service for ~5 years in a very hostile environment. I purchased the Iwaki shortly after placing the March pump in service (the March pump replaced a Little Giant pump. The march pump was a much better pump than the Little Giant, and I expect the Iwaki to be even better than the March. I have three of the Little Giants on hand, and they would likely do fine for beer purposes, but they proved unsuitable for their intended purpose.

Thank You for taking the time to create the shopping list!

coderage/shortyjacobs/bigdug/MikeScott,

Thank You, as I mentioned, I was perhaps a bit too sensitive and failed to allow time for the thread to fully develop. In some other darker corners of the internet where I use to play, I can only imagine how a newbie might have been recieved for wanting to "start at the top" (I am in no way suggesting I expect to become a master brewer, ever, only use equipment that will improve my chances of success.) And my reception here was actually quite warm. Again, Thank you.

DanTodd,

I have considered room AC units. They are certainly cheap enough, and with an external thermostat can provide the upper portion of the temperature range I am interested in, though I am uncertain "how low you can go" with them. I have a few that are not in use, I might experiment with one. I am quite comfortable with plumbing glycol, won't be a first for me. As for efficiency I am not sure at the end of the month which set-up would draw more kWhrs, but I would suspect it would be the AC units, but I doubt there would be enough difference to be meaningful. Honestly my plan was to use a window type AC with an external thermostat to keep the entire brewing room ~75F.

How much thought have you put into your mashing process? Do you plan on building a mill? It as much as 50% on your grain bill to buy in bulk and mill yourself. If you are planning on using extract it will make consistency and quality that much more difficult to attain and will be much more expensive.

For example:
50lb of Dry Malt extract = $150
50lb 2 row milled = $65
50 lbs 2 row bulk = $35

I absolutely plan on purchasing a grain mill and using whole grains. It doesn't make sense to me to do it any other way. I also certainly plan on motorizing it! I would assume the $0.70/lb bulk is pallet lot quantities of 50/60lb bags and does not include shipping? I have only looked at grain prices at a few places, and have not pursued shipping costs et al, but the base price of 2 row appeared to be a bit higher than $70/100lbs at the places I looked.

Beyond this general outline, I have really not done my homework on this subject yet. When I have read sufficiently I will post any questions I have in the proper forum. For now I am content to think milling grain is a task that has been resolved by others and simply requires purchasing good quality equipment and giving some fore thought to placement and set-up.

To everyone who sugested "start small",

There was an excellent point "brought home" by DanTodd, but probably at the heart of all of the suggestions about starting small, "You will also want a smaller scale brewery to work on your recipes before making large batches." I think I assumed "settling" on two or three recipies would be the "easy part", the rest would simply be building infrastructure and carefully refining the process. That's a newbie for you, and that's why I am here. My initial plan was to begin building this Winter and begin brewing late Spring to Early Summer. In reality, given the demands on my time, it would likely have been Fall before I would have been ready to start brewing. I am re-thinking that at this juncture. I could simply purchase a chest freezer and a temp controller, and as long as I kept the batch size to 5-10 gallons, I would need little build time or expense to begin. I have plenty of sankey kegs on hand, plasma cutter, welders, milling machine, lathes etc, etc, I should be able to assemble a "mini system" fairly quickly. I had wanted to avoid this step, but I see that it is a silly stage to skip. If I am unwilling to take the advice of people who have been doing this for years, I really should not have bothered to post! LOL So, I will put the micro-sized production brewery on hold for a few months and delve into nano-brewing in the coming weeks.

With that in mind, I need to do some planning.

Again, Thanks to all for the advice.

Fish

 

[remilard]

After all of the previous posts, I had pretty much decided to go the sankey route first. The only thing I seemed to miss was using sankey kegs to ferment and serve from. I will have to investigate this as I had pretty much decided that sanitising them was beyond the DITer, but it appears I have some more reading to do.

Its not that hard to DIY a Clean In Place for sankey kegs, especially since you are already familiar with pumps. Sanitation is a snap, put a gallon of water in it, pop it on a burner and boil for 15 minutes or so.

Thank You, as I mentioned, I was perhaps a bit too sensitive and failed to allow time for the thread to fully develop. In some other darker corners of the internet where I use to play, I can only imagine how a newbie might have been recieved for wanting to "start at the top" (I am in no way suggesting I expect to become a master brewer, ever, only use equipment that will improve my chances of success.) And my reception here was actually quite warm. Again, Thank you.

You've got an excellent chance at early success if you spend money on temperature control right off the bat. A big part of why it typically takes people time to start making good beer is that it takes them time to start spending the money/time to control fermentation (pitching rates and temperature).

I have considered room AC units. They are certainly cheap enough, and with an external thermostat can provide the upper portion of the temperature range I am interested in, though I am uncertain "how low you can go" with them.

They will go low enough to freeze beer, which hopefully is low enough for all of your beer related purposes.

I absolutely plan on purchasing a grain mill and using whole grains. It doesn't make sense to me to do it any other way. I also certainly plan on motorizing it! I would assume the $0.70/lb bulk is pallet lot quantities of 50/60lb bags and does not include shipping? I have only looked at grain prices at a few places, and have not pursued shipping costs et al, but the base price of 2 row appeared to be a bit higher than $70/100lbs at the places I looked.

With the quantities you are talking about brewing, you might think of buying a pallet. If you are in the lower 48, no problem getting below 70 cents a pound for domestic base malt shipped if you (or you and some other people) buy a pallet.

 

[dantodd]

Fish,

A chest freezer and temp controller are an excellent place to start. With a Sanke keg converted into a simple brew kettle (don't need anything as fancy as you'll eventually want) for $50 +keg and a 48 quart cooler plue $25 in parts you could start brewing ASAP. The sanke brew kettle would most likely be re-usable at some juncture as would the valves etc. so only the cooler would not be likely to be re-used except in your pilot system. But often cooler conversions can simply be undone and the cooler put back into service keeping beer cold. Of course your chest freezer and temp controller would be completely re-usable. You'll also need a propane or natural gas burner for doing your boils, you should have no problem using one scaled for your big system to do your small batches as the brewery is being built, that way it is 100% reusable.

If your plans really are to not have this running until late summer early fall you'll have plenty of time to get rolling with the small scale system and have a decent handle on your recipes by the time you're ready to brew in the big system.

The grain prices I grabbed were from MoreBeer.com just because they're also my LHBS (Local HomeBrew Shop) the bulk price was from a "group buy" thread on this board. There is probably a maltster or distributor within 100 miles of your place, they're all over we just don't know until we go looking. If you want to post your city I'm sure folks could point you in the right direction.

On the glycol system. If you are going to use glycol to cool your fermenters you might consider jacketing them instead of trying to use a radiator to cool the whole room. I think it would be more efficient and would definitely be more responsive as the fermenter would be directly cooled.

I'd also recommend buying "How to Brew" by John Palmer, it's a great resource. (The first edition is available online at www.howtobrew.com but it's worth buying the 3rd edition in print) Also, "Designing Great Beers" by Ray Daniels is good. It does a lot more on different styles but really puts everything from hops to color in perspective and within your control.

There are few things more important than temperature control in getting consistent, quality results in your brewing. You are obviously the kind of person who researches and documents everything. Documenting your brewing sessions will also be a HUGE advantage in being able to reproduce the same beers over and over again.

Have you considered buying a full 1 or 2 bbl system? There are a lot of small breweries going out of business and you might be able to pick one up relatively cheap. Also, look into brewing automation systems, they really take a lot of the grunt out of brewing.

ETA: forgot to say, you might want to make your small pilot brewery an 8 gallon setup. This would be perfect for the 7.5 gallon "pony" kegs.

 

[shortyjacobs]

There was an excellent point "brought home" by DanTodd, but probably at the heart of all of the suggestions about starting small, "You will also want a smaller scale brewery to work on your recipes before making large batches." I think I assumed "settling" on two or three recipies would be the "easy part", the rest would simply be building infrastructure and carefully refining the process. That's a newbie for you, and that's why I am here. My initial plan was to begin building this Winter and begin brewing late Spring to Early Summer. In reality, given the demands on my time, it would likely have been Fall before I would have been ready to start brewing. I am re-thinking that at this juncture. I could simply purchase a chest freezer and a temp controller, and as long as I kept the batch size to 5-10 gallons, I would need little build time or expense to begin. I have plenty of sankey kegs on hand, plasma cutter, welders, milling machine, lathes etc, etc, I should be able to assemble a "mini system" fairly quickly. I had wanted to avoid this step, but I see that it is a silly stage to skip. If I am unwilling to take the advice of people who have been doing this for years, I really should not have bothered to post! LOL So, I will put the micro-sized production brewery on hold for a few months and delve into nano-brewing in the coming weeks.

With that in mind, I need to do some planning.

Again, Thanks to all for the advice.

Fish

This last bit is, in my humble opinion, a fantastic idea. Even on brewery tours, I've occasionally seen 5 gallon carboys hanging around. Even at that level, they like to make test brews. I think that even once you get the large scale deal up and running, you might, once in a while, like to experiment...and before that, it'll be perfect for zeroing in on what you like, as well as the "basics" of brewing.

Trust me, just because I think Edworts Haus Pale ale is the best beer in the world, you might like it to be a bit less bitter, or have a bit more hop aroma, or be a bit darker, or less sweet. You'll want to zero in on what you like before you start making it by the tankerful.

Great plans man, you're obviously doing your homework! I look forward to seeing how this develops.

 

[dantodd]

Even on brewery tours, I've occasionally seen 5 gallon carboys hanging around. Even at that level, they like to make test brews.

Trust me, just because I think Edworts Haus Pale ale is the best beer in the world, you might like it to be a bit less bitter, or have a bit more hop aroma, or be a bit darker, or less sweet. You'll want to zero in on what you like before you start making it by the tankerful.

Great plans man, you're obviously doing your homework! I look forward to seeing how this develops.

When I was on a tour of Stone I noticed a 7 gallon conical they had on the floor that they used for testing new beers or new sources for ingredients etc. It's funny that you mention Ed's Haus Pale. It was my first AG and I took to an event and one of the craft beer drinkers thought it was an American lager. The BMC drinkers loved it. My craft brew friend liked my extract batch of Jamil's Hop Jack much better.

 

[fish4fun]

I have done a bit of reading, and I am preparing to do some ordering. Following is what I am currently planning on ordering. PLEASE help me edit this list:

Boil Pot ("Keggle"):
   Have On Hand:
     1/2bbl Sanke Keg
     Propane Burner & LP 
   To Purchase:
     Thermometer/Site Glass Combo from Bargain Fittings (Stainless)
     Temperature probe from Derrin
     Ball Valve & Weldless Fitting from Bargain Fittings (Stanless)
     Hose/Line
Chiller:
     DIY Counter Flow Chiller
          
Fermenter:
   Have on Hand:
     1/2bbl Sanke Keg
     20lb CO2 Tank
   To Purchase:
     Chest Type Freezer
     BCS-460 Controller & Probe
     Derrin's Sanke Fermenter Conversion Kit
     Additional CO2 Regulator
     Air Lock Valve
     Hose/Lines
General:
     Hydrometer
     Cleaning and Sanitation Products
Ingredients:
     Grain
     Hops
     Yeast

Still lots of reading to do! Everytime I think I need to DIY something I find a thread where a mature products exists ready to purchase! While I am a rather serious DIYer, the goal is still quality beer, not hours in my machine shop! Any advice that comes to mind toward this end, PLEASE share. The members of this forum have already fundamentally altered my short-term plans with what I expect to find is very savvy advice.

As a side note: many have assumed from my stated intentions that my primary goal in home brewing might be to "save money". Honestly this is not the case; the truth is far more bizzare. As previously stated, I have a retail store and full Federal/State/County ABC permits, so in theory, I can "source kegs" for personal consumption at will, or so one might think. My local AB wholesaler (state law prohibits my store from purchasing from any other source than the "licsensed wholesalers within my region") was purchased by a larger AB distributor last year. The new distributor does not seem to understand that they are in the business of selling beer, at least not in kegs. They are out of stock in keg beer about three out of any given four week stretch. It is untennable. Yes, there are coors and miller distributors as well; however, their offerings are not my preference. I have always had an interest in brewing, so I thought I would give it a go. I do not really have time to invest in the hobby side, though I am certain I would enjoy it. The time I invest up front will be an effort to ensure a repeatable process in the future. I realize that wanting to go from zero to streamline production is a tall order, and I am taking everyone's advice and "starting small", but my goal in the "nano-system" is to work through the learning curve side so that I can scale the equipment with confidence in success. The cost of the small scale set up is fairly trivial compared to where I would like to end up, and the lead time on setting up the full scale facility is lengthy. Since I already have several construction projects underway, my wife will, no doubt, be happy that I will not be digging another foundation in November. Failing to produce a quality beer was simply something I had not considered; I am certain I will experience that soon enough.

Thanks for all the advice, please keep giving me more. I am learning, and you all have a lot to offer.

Fish

 

[dantodd]

You're a little out of my league on size with everything so it's tough for me to give actual advice that is valuable but a couple issues I do see are:

Most people use a boiler that is a bit larger than their fermentation vessel because you need the extra space for the active rolling boil. There is nothing wrong with using the same size if you simply have lots of kegs but realize that you will probably be doing 10 or so gallons max with a 15 gallon brew kettle to account for boil space and evaporation. (e.g. I start with 7 gallons in the brew kettle for a 5.5 gallon batch)

Also, unless you are planning on using the sanke you are setting up as a brew kettle for an MLT or HLT later you don't need a thermometer. The sight glass is nice but most folks pre-measure their wort going in so it's not necessary, it might help you adjust the aggressiveness of your boil to fine tune your ending volume but for most folks they just boil at the same rate and adjust their beginning volume once they know the evaporation rate of their normal process.

I would also invest in a refractometer, it's only $30 or so on eBay and you will absolutely want one in the near future anyway. They make taking gravity readings along the way much easier and managing to hit gravity is a huge part in making consistent beer.

 

[shortyjacobs]

God I wish I could just start out a hobby the way you are going!

So, if you are doing All Grain, you need THREE kegs (or two kegs and a cooler). You need a keg for your HLT - Hot Liquor Tun. This is where you will heat water for striking and sparging. The HLT needs a thermometer and sight glass.

You need a keg for your MLT - Mash Lauter Tun. This is where you will mash and sparge your grain. Your MLT will need a false bottom or braid/manifold for lautering and a thermometer. (No sight glass needed here, unless you plan on fly sparging - I'd do batch sparging)

Your Boil Kettle sounds good, but as stated here the thermometer is not really necessary, as you will usually be just boiling in it. Since you are using a CFC, you will never need to know the temp of your BK.

Research RIMS and HERMS systems, (3 keg systems), or if you want to go "pumpless" use a 3 tier gravity system, but since you already said you would use a March or other pump, look into the RIMS and HERMS.

Lookin' good!

Edit: Check out the "show us your sculpture" thread for people's rigs. Most of those are going to be great templates for your 10 gallon "prototype" system.

 

[fish4fun]

You guys are great! I am a bit in my cups (yes, I do actually DRINK beer (and it is "football day") so I will stop here, but PLEASE do not think that I hang on most of your words; I hang on EVERY ONE. When I read your posts I find new topics to search for and explore. Thank You. Some of the things you think are trivial it would NEVER have occured to me to pursue. Rest assured, when I see a term or reference that I do not fully understand, it sends me into hours of reading.

I am only on page 9 of the "sanitation" sticky, but there are two things that I am surprised about: 1) There has been no mention of "Bromine", probably for good reason, 2) There is no mention of O3 (ozone). I certainly plan to invest in the discussed and prefered cleaners and sanitizers, but it was the omissions that caught my attention. Perhaps mention and dismissal of these sanitizers is in later posts that I have not yet read, because from what I have read so far, nothing I think of is unique or new.

Please, just because my day off is Monday (and Sunday afternoon) does not mean I can't read; it simply means I do not wrtie well ;-)

Fish

 

[northernlad]

If you are interested in Ozone, see here: http://www.sanjamar.com/saftwash/
I have not thought of it for all-purpose sanitizing, so you would have to do some homework for a brewery application.
It is NSF certified and available just recently. It is NOT cheap. It goes for $1500-$2000 but could be an easy, absolutely mindless solution.

 

[jds]

Keep saying it on an alcohol website that is no doubt monitored (like so much of the web) by the very federal authorities tasked to enforce alcohol laws. It's not BATF anymore but still
.
.
.

Preach on, Reverend!

I swear, this guy could get me into a church with that kind of talk!

 

[FireNightFly]

Shoot for the Stars and Hope to hit the Moon.

Be prepared for criticism, not everyone is gonna like your beer. You may not even like it, but it might be the next thing to white bread to someone else or vise versa. Good luck, wish I could do what your doing.

 

[fish4fun]

Northernlad,

I am quite familiar with Ozone, I have used it for years for sanitizing my hottub and, more recently, my minnow tank. (I am in the Fishing Tackle Retail Business). It is amazing stuff. I am unsure about the quantity requisit for sanitising brewery equipment, but for a 500 gallon hot tub I use a unit that costs ~$180 ( http://www.spadepot.com/shop/Del-MCD-50-High-Output-CD-Ozonator-Kit-120V-P9419C674.aspx ) The rated output is 50mg/hr which is a fair amount of O3 for the investment. I have built a DIY Ozone generator using an automotive ignotion coil, a uController, mosfets and a pair of spark plugs, but in the end I use the commercial version for noise reasons, not to mention safety reasons (one of my employees has a pace maker and my DIY unit produces ~15kV and I simply did not trust my engineering skills with an employee's life around salt water); none-the-less O3 is not difficult or expensive to produce, DIY or commercially, and it is an amazing sanitizer. I have absolutely NO experience with it as a sanitizer for brewing purposes, and plan to employ more conventional sanitizers in my initial brewery set-up; however, was surprised that it did not make the very technical sanitizer list in the sanitising thread(s). Since I obviously have NO experience in the brewing hobby/trade, pioneering a new technology is well beyond my current pay-grade, but I think it might be of some interest in the future to me, and perhaps others. (A search of HBT lists 7 threads that mention Ozone, two of them involve something other than "the ozone layer". One of them mentions it as a sanitizer.) Obviously not a "hot topic", LOL.

Another oxidizer I use for killing bacteria in my minnow system is magnesium permanganate. It is dirt cheap, safe to minnows, and deadly on bacteria; I have NO idea if it might be useful or even safe for brewing sanitation.

I should prolly port these thoughts to the appropriate forum, they are certainly tangental to the topic @ hand.

Fish
Again

 

[dantodd]

Damn, pool, beer, liquor license and now fishing. Where do you live, I might have to move in.

 

[bigdug]

Damn, pool, beer, liquor license and now fishing. Where do you live, I might have to move in.

I have to agree and from your profile we may be in the same state. Do you need a new best friend? At the least you are my hero.