Considering eBIAB Build--Need Some Help and Opinions

[tennesseean_87]

I've been an apt stove-top brewer for years. My 6-gallon bottling bucket mash tun gets me 80-92% efficiency with fly sparging from my bottling bucket HLT. The problem is brewing makes everything hot and humid, takes up the whole kitchen, and the whole day. I'm looking to decrease my footprint, move outside (possibly), and quit needing to set aside a whole day to brew and clean up.

I'm still in an apartment, but I've got a patio outside with a 15amp GFCI outlet and could run an extension cord from the bathroom which has a 20amp. I've been thinking about a 62 qt Bayou Classic kettle and two elements, but I'm not sure if this is the best set-up for me.

For background: here is my (I believe) unique process (more details in diversity link in my sig): Mash for a 5-8 gallon batch, sparge, and all that and then evenly split the runnings into 2 x 2.5-5 gallon batches (capping with specialty grains where needed). Do two consecutive boils on stovetop. I like this because I still get 5+ gallons from a brew day (so I don't have to try to fit too many into my schedule), but I get a greater diversity of styles.

I'm not sure the smaller boils would work well with such a wide pot, but I'm also not sure a smaller pot would be big enough for the simplicity of full-volume mashing.

My questions:
-Does anyone have experience with smaller batches in an electric kettle?
-Will 1650w and 2000w elements be enough for brewing the size batches listed above (and work with my circuits), even in ND winters?
-Are there taller kettles available (on a budget) than the BC that will give more depth with smaller boils?
-Should I just go for 2 eBIAB kettles (5 or 8 gallon w/ 1650w and 12 gallon w/2000w)? This would give me more variety (not having to share a mash) but also more complexity. I guess the time wouldn't be that much different.
-Do you have any other thoughts or advice for such a build?

 

[iijakii]

If you want to keep doing single mash to two separate boils, first thing that springs to mind is 2x 5gal kettles with a 2000W element in each. Don't even need a control panel in that case as full-throttle shouldnt be too strong of a boil.

Mash in a larger cooler with BIAB and a ratcheting pulley, then you don't have to dick around with HERMS/RIMS or any sparging issues. Super easy, simple, cheap.

 

[tennesseean_87]

If you want to keep doing single mash to two separate boils, first thing that springs to mind is 2x 5gal kettles with a 2000W element in each. Don't even need a control panel in that case as full-throttle shouldnt be too strong of a boil.

Mash in a larger cooler with BIAB and a ratcheting pulley, then you don't have to dick around with HERMS/RIMS or any sparging issues. Super easy, simple, cheap.

I hadn't thought thought about a large cooler for the mash (I was planning on the rachet thing). Can I run a 2000w element on a 15 amp circuit?

This is cutting down a bit on the simplicity, but it may be the most effective option for stable mash temp and solve the boil problem.

I guess I'm not married to the single mash idea, but if it works, I'll keep doing it.

Thanks for the reply!

 

[iijakii]

Oh, sorry overlooked the 15A patio circuit part. No you'd need to stick to 1650w. I'm not sure how much you could boil with that. Maybe there's someone on this forum that has a 1500/1650W kettle. 2000W can do 5gal, I've seen 6gal reported here before but I think that's pretty lucky, great insulation etc.

 

[iijakii]

I've also had a system with 2x 1500w elements in a 9gal kettle where I did 5.5gal batches and it worked well. But with you enjoying split-batches I'm not sure that's the route to go. I really think 2x single element pots would be a great fit for you, but that's your decision.

 

[UndeadFred]

You can maybe go 8 gallons with two 15A elements. Use a 12 gauge cord from the bathroom. 1650 might be able to sustain a boil... Unplug the one on the extension cord. It is probably worth a try...

 

[tennesseean_87]

The more I think about the cooler idea, the more I'm thinking it's maybe not what I'm looking for.

It'd be easy to later on add a pump and PID for controlling mash temps. I could also pop one element on and stir or manually recirc to do step mashes now.

The main reason separate pots appealed to me was doing separate mashes at the same time and gaining the ability to do consecutive boils. If I go with separate pots, though, I think I'd still like one to be big enough for a full volume (or nearly) mash.

I don't think I'll be wanting to boil more than a 5 gallon batch at once unless it's in two separate pots (in which case the 20A will get the larger volume batch). Keeping it to 1 big pot with consecutive boils will give a more vigorous boil since both elements are in the wort at once, but I'm not sure they will be covered when boiling 3 gallon batches.

Thanks for helping me think through this, guys!

 

[tennesseean_87]

You can maybe go 8 gallons with two 15A elements. Use a 12 gauge cord from the bathroom. 1650 might be able to sustain a boil... Unplug the one on the extension cord. It is probably worth a try...

I'll have one 15A and one 20A. By 'go 8 gallons' do you mean boil 8 gallons for a 7 gallon batch after boil-off?

 

[applescrap]

We are in the same boat my wife just put the kybash on my plans inside! A lot depends on how much you want to spend. No matter what if you change something or add something it will change the cost. Probably cheapest and easiest for you would be to add a heat stick in combination with your stove. You could probably even do full volume and you could certainly do smaller batches the way you have been and/or possibly with the heat stick. No controller needed. If your panel is right there you could step up and brew 240 on your patio that's what I'm going to do. But then insulating becomes in question when its cold. The guy at my beer store said this boiler works I bet it does and well. Sounds like a new stove wouldn't hurt you. My stove rocked but I just didn't want to hurt a new one.
Use hot water from your hot water tank and that will speed the process up a lot too. There is a fiery debate on this but the water from my hot water tank tastes fine and I use it.

View attachment 1449551759088.jpg

 

[iijakii]

Keeping it to 1 big pot with consecutive boils will give a more vigorous boil since both elements are in the wort at once, but I'm not sure they will be covered when boiling 3 gallon batches.

Depends on the kettle. I think for 10/15gal kettles you can get the element submerged at 3gal mark pretty easily. I think my 15 one right now is about 2.5gal. Ill check it later.

 

[rossi46]

My 16 gallon kettle is right around 3 gallons and my 25 gallon kettle is at 5 gallons.

 

[tennesseean_87]

We are in the same boat my wife just put the kybash on my plans inside! A lot depends on how much you want to spend. No matter what if you change something or add something it will change the cost. Probably cheapest and easiest for you would be to add a heat stick in combination with your stove. You could probably even do full volume and you could certainly do smaller batches the way you have been and/or possibly with the heat stick. No controller needed. If your panel is right there you could step up and brew 240 on your patio that's what I'm going to do. But then insulating becomes in question when its cold. The guy at my beer store said this boiler works I bet it does and well. Sounds like a new stove wouldn't hurt you. My stove rocked but I just didn't want to hurt a new one.
Use hot water from your hot water tank and that will speed the process up a lot too. There is a fiery debate on this but the water from my hot water tank tastes fine and I use it.

Since I'm renting an apartment, I'm not planning to be buying a new stove, running 240V lines out the bedroom window, or anything else. I have some 1 inch extruded polystyrene that I was thinking of building walls onto a brew-stand with for insulation.

My 16 gallon kettle is right around 3 gallons and my 25 gallon kettle is at 5 gallons.

So my plan should work with a 15 gallon kettle?

Depends on the kettle. I think for 10/15gal kettles you can get the element submerged at 3gal mark pretty easily. I think my 15 one right now is about 2.5gal. Ill check it later.

So original plan sounds pretty good?

How wide are the 16 gallon and 10/15 gallon you guys are talking about? I've been estimating the height of a 4 gallon boil based on dividing the listed height by the total number of gallons the pot holds. The BC 62 qt. is 20" tall, so with 4 gallons it should be about 5" height.

What about adding marbles or something to displace the wort during the boil?

 

[UndeadFred]

I have made a couple of small HLTs with 20A 120V elements in five gallon pots and they could boil 4 gallons each in about 45. I think you could boil 10 gallons in a 15 gallon kettle with two 15A elements but it likely would take awhile. 7 to 8 gallons of water is pretty do able for a five gallon batch. Worse case here is you end up relegated to a HLT , which like will still be useful to you. Maybe try this with an inexpensive turkey fryer aluminum pot first. And make sure you plug both elements into a GFCI and have the kettle properly grounded.

 

[UndeadFred]

You could also add one element and augment your stove, but that doesn't help you that much with the humidity...

 

[rossi46]

my 16 is the bayou classic for brewing, just check their website for demensions

 

[tennesseean_87]

You could also add one element and augment your stove, but that doesn't help you that much with the humidity...

Yeah, I want to get most of it out of the kitchen. That way my wife can still cook while brew day is happening.

I have made a couple of small HLTs with 20A 120V elements in five gallon pots and they could boil 4 gallons each in about 45. I think you could boil 10 gallons in a 15 gallon kettle with two 15A elements but it likely would take awhile. 7 to 8 gallons of water is pretty do able for a five gallon batch. Worse case here is you end up relegated to a HLT , which like will still be useful to you. Maybe try this with an inexpensive turkey fryer aluminum pot first. And make sure you plug both elements into a GFCI and have the kettle properly grounded.

Both are going into GFCI and I'll ground the kettle(s) as I've seen on here.

I won't be boiling 10 gallons since I split runnings into multiple batches. I guess I can definitely boil easily enough with 35amps combined. Perhaps for smaller boils I'll bring one beer in for the stove or maybe put a third element in a smaller pot (5 gallon pot for 3 gallon batch) to boil the smaller batches while the bigger ones (I often dilute one) go in the main kettle. If I don't have enough fire power that way I can just do them consecutively in two pots.

What are the largest elements I can safely run on 20A and 15A circuits?

 

[craigmw]

I hadn't thought thought about a large cooler for the mash (I was planning on the rachet thing). Can I run a 2000w element on a 15 amp circuit?

This is cutting down a bit on the simplicity, but it may be the most effective option for stable mash temp and solve the boil problem.

I guess I'm not married to the single mash idea, but if it works, I'll keep doing it.

Thanks for the reply!

A 2000W element on a 120V circuit is going to pull between 16-17 amps, so you are likely to pop the circuit breaker with that element. It would be best to stick with a lower wattage 120V rated element, or use a 5500W (230V) element run with a single 120V leg, which would pull around 12 amps (1440W) if my simple Ohm's Law calculations are correct.

 

[tennesseean_87]

So 2000W on the 20 amp circuit and 1500 on the 15A?

Do I need to get a meter and check outlet voltage? Can't it vary from 110-120? That could be the difference between 1650 and 1500W, right?

 

[johnsant]

one option is to check out the systems on High Gravity may give you an idea or two for 120V system. why not just change out the bracker and GFI to 20 amps. then no worries. That's what I did to get my system up and running with 2800W.

 

[tennesseean_87]

one option is to check out the systems on High Gravity may give you an idea or two for 120V system. why not just change out the bracker and GFI to 20 amps. then no worries. That's what I did to get my system up and running with 2800W.

I'm not sure the landlord would appreciate my electrical tampering. My dad advised looking at the wiring to see what was used, and then possibly swapping a breaker out.

I also found out that the AC unit runs on a 240V 15Amp breaker. I guess I should be able to run a 3000 or 3500W element from that once I add GFCI. If I need it, I can use a 1500W as well. With that much power I may pull the trigger on the 15 gallon kettle and do a little more research (like getting a multi-meter and checking wall voltage) before I grab the elements.

I'm also still thinking about a 1500W or 2000W element in a 5 gallon pot for boiling smaller batches simultaneously.

 

[iijakii]

I think one smaller pot with a 2kw element and one 9gal with a 3500w would be pretty cool. You could still split batch if you wanted, or do full 5gal in the larger one.

 

[UndeadFred]

Water heater elements for 120V come in two standard sizes. One is 2000W for 20A circuits. The other is 1650W (sometimes labelled 1500W). If you are going to plug in to a standard GFCI you must use the smaller ones. Changing a breaker and GFCI can only be done if the wiring on that circuit is 12 gauge or thicker. You can use a 240V element at 120V but the power will be roughly 1/4 the rated output. So a 5500W element puts out less power than the 15A 120V element. But it is super low watt density at that point. But I would be concerned that two of those would not be enough for a reasonable boil or time to boil.

 

[tennesseean_87]

I think one smaller pot with a 2kw element and one 9gal with a 3500w would be pretty cool. You could still split batch if you wanted, or do full 5gal in the larger one.

I ordered a 62 qt Bayous Classic this morning. I looked at some of my notes, and I once did a mash of 15 lbs of grain and split the runnings for 4 gallons of Trippel and 5 of Pils (post-boil). I need the bigger pot to do this.

What I am considering is making a 1500w or 2000w heatstick to speed up heating times in the big pot, then transferring it to a smaller pot when I split the wort. This would allow me to do another split I've done before--a single boil of Oktoberfest split post-boil where dark candi syrup and steeping of Special B are added for a Dubbel and the Ofest diluted a bit. The bigger element should be able handle it, especially if augmented with the heat stick.

Water heater elements for 120V come in two standard sizes. One is 2000W for 20A circuits. The other is 1650W (sometimes labelled 1500W). 1. If you are going to plug in to a standard GFCI you must use the smaller ones.
2. Changing a breaker and GFCI can only be done if the wiring on that circuit is 12 gauge or thicker.
3. You can use a 240V element at 120V but the power will be roughly 1/4 the rated output. So a 5500W element puts out less power than the 15A 120V element. But it is super low watt density at that point. But I would be concerned that two of those would not be enough for a reasonable boil or time to boil.

1. I've not heard that before. Are the GFCIs installed on a 20A circuit not rated for that?
2. Right. That's why my dad recommended checking the wiring to see if they possibly used an undersized breaker that could be upgraded before making the swap.
3. The AC outlet is 240V, but only 15A. I think that still gives me enough to go for 3kW, though, right?

The other thing my dad mentioned is that I could use an infinite switch if I could scrounge one from a stove to turn down the big element if need be.

My only reservation about a 3kW element is that I might want a bigger one later on. How hard are they to change out once installed? Also, what difference does the sheathing material make?

 

[UndeadFred]

I said standard GFCI. By that comment I meant a 15A rated one. There ARE 20A rated ones, for a buck or two more.. they have the "T" shaped neutral (thick side of the plug). A true 20A plug has one vertical hot and one horizontal neutral. That is the plug you need to use with a 20A element.

14 ga house wire is rated to 15A, 12 ga is to 20A in "normal" length runs. So this is why you can't swap out the breaker and GFCI unless you verify a 12 GA run of short enough length. Consult the NEC for this, please.

Here is a picture of a 120V 20A GFCI a 15A doesn't have the T neutral.

 

[UndeadFred]

As for a 15A 240V.. assuming you are building this for a continuous run, then yes 3KW is about it for the size of the element. You generally want to derate the "ampacity" by about 20% but that is close enough in practical use.

I have a 4500W element in my kettle and an actual current measuring meter in the control panel and it draws 18A almost exactly at 236V measured line voltage, so 4248W... all of them run a little less than rated it seems.. likely you can go up to about 3.2KW...

It is a bit hard to find an element that size in a hardware store... but there are ones on e-bay at that size.. good luck...

 

[tennesseean_87]

I said standard GFCI. By that comment I meant a 15A rated one. There ARE 20A rated ones, for a buck or two more.. they have the "T" shaped neutral (thick side of the plug). A true 20A plug has one vertical hot and one horizontal neutral. That is the plug you need to use with a 20A element.

14 ga house wire is rated to 15A, 12 ga is to 20A in "normal" length runs. So this is why you can't swap out the breaker and GFCI unless you verify a 12 GA run of short enough length. Consult the NEC for this, please.

Here is a picture of a 120V 20A GFCI a 15A doesn't have the T neutral.

As for a 15A 240V.. assuming you are building this for a continuous run, then yes 3KW is about it for the size of the element. You generally want to derate the "ampacity" by about 20% but that is close enough in practical use.

I have a 4500W element in my kettle and an actual current measuring meter in the control panel and it draws 18A almost exactly at 236V measured line voltage, so 4248W... all of them run a little less than rated it seems.. likely you can go up to about 3.2KW...

It is a bit hard to find an element that size in a hardware store... but there are ones on e-bay at that size.. good luck...

Thanks for the replies! It looks like I'll just use the 15A 240V and maybe the 15A 120V with a heat stick. I'll probably try to find the element online.

 

[applescrap]

Thanks for the replies! It looks like I'll just use the 15A 240V and maybe the 15A 120V with a heat stick. I'll probably try to find the element online.

Brewhardware.com he has the heat sticks elements etc. Blam! Or you could jb weld some pipes together its just not my style i work to hard to save 50 bucks. Sure someone here will tell you how to make a 20 dollar heat stick but really. A ssteel element with ssteel base the wiring tools pipes glue etc. Umm.

Cool thing about heat stick. You only need one cause you can move it! Need 2 for concurrent usage obviously. No controller required i dont think based on what i have read. Insulate kettle well that helps a lot i need to buy some too anyone know what to use? Splash out the ben franklin for heat stick and your done thats my advice ymmv

 

[UndeadFred]

I think that configuration would work very well for you. At some point I want to build a 15A heat stick because it would be so handy.. that or a RIMS tube since I have a small solar pump...

Fred

 

[tennesseean_87]

Well, I've changed my mind a billion times so far in considering this build. My latest idea is to add a spa panel to a dryer cord in the laundry room. I'll then run some sort of vent fan near the top of the kettle through the dryer exhaust.

This way I'll be able to go with a 4500w or 5500w element which is what I'll eventually want anyway. I'll get things boiling quick, and then be able to unplug and run it from 120v for 1375w for smaller boils. If I get enough $$$ at xmas and birthday, then I'll buy a PID to control the element to get a good boil at whatever size batch (and eventually mash temp control).

 

[UndeadFred]

You could do the poor man's boil regulator too and change cords for 120V into that element or get a Schottky diode from a DigiKey/Mouser, whatever and use that for boil as well with a relay to bypass for full 240V. The PIDs on eBay are cheaper than your spa panel. Good luck.