Consecration kit from MoreBeer

[ruger988]

Brewed in June and took my first sample today. Starting to sour but not quite what I was expecting. Think I'll dum some Cantillon dregs in soon. Also took a gravity reading that turned out to be 1.002... sound about right?

 

[The_Nid_Hog]

I brewed my Consecration on January 5, 2013. I tasted it most recently right before Christmas and it has far exceeded my expectations. Complex, sour, funky, vinous. I'm really pleased with it. Since I have the day off tomorrow, I think I'll bottle tonight. I have a couple of cases of Champagne bottles saved up that I'm going to crown cap (I've been doing that with sours for a while). Any last minute advice on carbonation or anything like that?

 

[ruger988]

I brewed my Consecration on January 5, 2013. I tasted it most recently right before Christmas and it has far exceeded my expectations. Complex, sour, funky, vinous. I'm really pleased with it. Since I have the day off tomorrow, I think I'll bottle tonight. I have a couple of cases of Champagne bottles saved up that I'm going to crown cap (I've been doing that with sours for a while). Any last minute advice on carbonation or anything like that?

All I can say is I envy your patience to let it sit for 2 years in a fermenter. I brewed in June and am getting anxious!

 

[FredTheNuke]

Heck my curants finally dropped after waiting for nine months! Tasting the yummy Ness is still a bit away though

 

[The_Nid_Hog]

All I can say is I envy your patience to let it sit for 2 years in a fermenter. I brewed in June and am getting anxious!

Ah--you caught my typo! I shouldn't post while I'm watching TV. Just a year--it's from Jan 5, 2014.

 

[hllywd]

For my second batch I'm switching things up a little. Local shop only had out of date Wyeast Trappist HG when I brewed so I figured what the heck. With a 2L starter the batch went off like a rocket for the first 3 days. At about a week I racked onto the supplied currants, and added 1 each - ECY Bugfarm, and ECY Bugcountry which resulted in some moderate activity for a couple days. Last night at about a month I decided to go a little further off the ranch and added the oak cubes from a recent batch of Winexpert Stags Leap Merlot. No visible pelicle at this time but a sample revealed a decent tartness already using the ECY. The flavor is good. I'll check back a few months!

Found this last night, smells awesome! Didn't disturb it for a sample...

 

[hllywd]

 

[ruger988]

Wow!! Details? I'v egot nothing like that going on!

 

[FredTheNuke]

which may mean that you are doing just fine! without oxygen in your carboy.

 

[hllywd]

Wow!! Details? I'v egot nothing like that going on!

Really nothing more than I already posted... Trappist HG to start, then Bugfarm, and Bugcountry. As of the first week of November it had some tartness and good flavor, but no hint of a pellicle. I did add the oak cubes from a batch of wine sometime not too much prior to that. I left my original batch on the included oak for a couple months, and think it could have been in much longer with no adverse affects. I didn't disturb it now, but if it tastes anything like it smells this one is going to be very good. I won't open it again till late summer or early fall (which would be about a year from brew day). I'll decide then whether I want to add the oak that came with the kit.

 

[The_Nid_Hog]

I finally bottled my Consecration last night. Five gallons in crown capped champagne bottles. I also bottled another five gallons that's a sort of Son of Consecration. When I racked my Consecration over onto the currants, I brewed another five gallons with an identical grain bill and it went in on the old yeast cake. I fed it some prunes instead of currants just to change things up a little. As you would expect, it's a little more aggressively sour than it's dad but it's still nicely balanced. The prunes really add a nice flavor, although they just about completely decomposed and were pretty messy. I'm looking forward to the first tasting once they've carbed.

 

[dtwhite]

I just tasted my clone kit that's been in secondary for around 8 months and it's tasting great! In the last couple of months it has really turned around and is tasting a lot more like Consecration. I'll be adding the oak soon.

For the oak addition - did anyone treat the oak before adding it? I was considering soaking it in some cabernet for more wine character, but I assumed most people were adding it dry.

 

[user 141939]

I just tasted my clone kit that's been in secondary for around 8 months and it's tasting great! In the last couple of months it has really turned around and is tasting a lot more like Consecration. I'll be adding the oak soon.

For the oak addition - did anyone treat the oak before adding it? I was considering soaking it in some cabernet for more wine character, but I assumed most people were adding it dry.

A good question. The wine would oxidize? But then again you'd think the wine in the barrels would be oxidized too.

Interested to hear if anyone has done this. I remember reading someone was going to try to vacuum seal the wine with the oak. And someone else said the beer has a vinous character anyways, presumably from the currants, and that wine wouldn't be necessary.

On a side note i just peeked at mine yesterday, and most of the currents have dropped already, it's only been two months. Interesting since it seems much shorter than what others have been reporting.

 

[dtwhite]

Well, it gets a lot of wine character from being aged in Cabernet barrels. We are adding a proportionately very small amount of those barrels (which are already used) so I was thinking the added soak would supplement that flavor.

 

[TrickyDick]

I just tasted my clone kit that's been in secondary for around 8 months and it's tasting great! In the last couple of months it has really turned around and is tasting a lot more like Consecration. I'll be adding the oak soon.

For the oak addition - did anyone treat the oak before adding it? I was considering soaking it in some cabernet for more wine character, but I assumed most people were adding it dry.

I used several stave segments, which are from new barrels, so I boiled in water for five minutes then dumped to simulate used barrel by removing much of that charred oak character hopefully. Next I put into a microwave proof glass jar and added some cabernet and cooked on high until just boing or starting to boil. I let it cool to room temp and then repeated this for five cycles. Someone posted here about how some folks do this to treat oak prior to using to flavor distilled projects. Something about the heat-cool cycles to open the wood to get the cab flavor to soak in. I also dumped in several oz of wine.

TD

 

[FredTheNuke]

Some of us add a 1/3 of a bottle of Cabernet wine per 5 gallon batch to this brew, also.

 

[dtwhite]

Good to know, thanks. I might go for dry cubes and also dump 1/4 to 1/3 of a bottle in there, since I feel like I am less likely to make a mistake doing that.

 

[jahdub]

Ordered a consecration kit, should be brewing next week. Gonna pitch a portion of a ~3 month old roeselare cake from my flanders red. Pretty excited.

 

[jasondirkx]

About my 12th homebrew, maybe my 5th or 6th all grain and my first sour. I just started brewing this kit a couple weeks ago. It's in the primary, everything's been going great, gravity readings were spot on and after 2 weeks was still at 1.020 (measured consistent over several days) so I let it sit thinking it was done, but hoping it might edge down in the 1.018-1.016 range.

Well life happened and I didn't get back to it for another week. I just took a few measurements this morning and I think it may have over-fermented (if that's a word) as it looks like it's down to about 1.010!

I threw it in the garage to cold crash/shut down the yeast and I'll take more measurements later today to make sure I was correct, but if it did ferment down that low, any suggestions for a midstream correction? Do I need to add more fermentables for the Brett and/or the Roselare? If so, recommendations? Any help is appreciated! I'm not super concerned about cloning Consecration, but I just want to make sure I end up with a good sour.

 

[TrickyDick]

No worries! Sour beer can often ferment to near or even below 1.000. Some species of Brett are so-called "super attenuators ". Only thing to do now is wait some more. I think Vinnie Cilurzo claimed in an interview that he doesn't bottle until below 1.009.

Sounds like you probably nailed this one.

 

[jasondirkx]

No worries! Sour beer can often ferment to near or even below 1.000. Some species of Brett are so-called "super attenuators ". Only thing to do now is wait some more. I think Vinnie Cilurzo claimed in an interview that he doesn't bottle until below 1.009.

Sounds like you probably nailed this one.

But I'm at that without having pitched Brett or Roselare yet, that's what I'm worried about.

 

[TrickyDick]

Well that might be another matter.

Rest assured, all the data out there says that the effective funky Brett contributions are independent of the gravity, and are from transformation of wort/beer constituents, many of which are created by the primary yeast that the Brett will then consume.

If you want a righteously puckering sour, consider adding second generation Roeselare yeast cake. If that isn't possible, you might need to titrate the final pH with food grade lactic acid as a final measure. Before doing this, I'd say wait at least a year to let things get right. These beers take time, so don't worry, you are on the right track.

For what it's worth, I found that my batch, still on secondary and waiting to be bottled or blended, that half of the beer that I pitched the roeselare for primary fermentation is more sour than the other half fermented in primary with wlp530. (Then got Brett and roeselare per the VC method).

TD

 

[dtwhite]

What are your thoughts on adding maltodextrin to provide more bug food?

 

[TrickyDick]

Couldn't hurt, but the thought that it is going to make it better than adding any other fermentable is potentially debatable.
I confess I am not sure what metabolic pathways are used by the bacteria and potentially the brettanomyces in utilizing the maltodextrin as fuel. I don't necessarily think it would lower the pH any more than regular table sugar would. It is my understanding the lactic acid derives from glycolysis via the resulting pyruvate molecule that is then converted to lactic acid. Maltodextrin is basically a chain of glucose molecules which can vary in length, and cannot be fermented by saccharomyces. Ultimately, the chains of maltodextrin are presumably broken down into glucose then fed into the normal pathways by the bugs. For whatever reason sacch cannot do this first step. The bottom line is if you want more sour, this may not necessarily be a huge benefit over any other fermentables. I'm no biochemist however so I would defer to them.

TD

 

[jahdub]

Couldn't hurt, but the thought that it is going to make it better than adding any other fermentable is potentially debatable.
I confess I am not sure what metabolic pathways are used by the bacteria and potentially the brettanomyces in utilizing the maltodextrin as fuel. I don't necessarily think it would lower the pH any more than regular table sugar would. It is my understanding the lactic acid derives from glycolysis via the resulting pyruvate molecule that is then converted to lactic acid. Maltodextrin is basically a chain of glucose molecules which can vary in length, and cannot be fermented by saccharomyces. Ultimately, the chains of maltodextrin are presumably broken down into glucose then fed into the normal pathways by the bugs. For whatever reason sacch cannot do this first step. The bottom line is if you want more sour, this may not necessarily be a huge benefit over any other fermentables. I'm no biochemist however so I would defer to them.

TD

I am not a biochemist, either, but I agree with this. I think the brett will break the maltodextrin into simple sugars, allowing the sacc to ferment them.

The best strategy for adding fermentables would probably just wait for the sacc to lose most of its viability over a few months, then add a little bit of sugar.

Personally, if the flavor wasn't what I wanted, I'd either add lactic acid or brew another beer and blend them together or both.

 

[mnick12]

I am not a biochemist, either, but I agree with this. I think the brett will break the maltodextrin into simple sugars, allowing the sacc to ferment them.

The best strategy for adding fermentables would probably just wait for the sacc to lose most of its viability over a few months, then add a little bit of sugar.

Personally, if the flavor wasn't what I wanted, I'd either add lactic acid or brew another beer and blend them together or both.

I am technically a biochemist, but I have no idea either. That being said I would guess it depends on the enzyme(s) produced to break down the malto dextrin. If it is exogenous, then yes sach could ferment it before the bugs get to it. However maybe some of the bugs have a transport for some of the larger sacharides, in which case sach would not have acces to them becuase they are inside the brett/bacterial cells.

 

[TrickyDick]

As I suspected, there is no black and white answer for the question posed.

In my opinion, the answer is NO. No significant benefit to the beer will result from you dumping some maltodextrin into the mix, unless the goal is to increase the ABV of the final beer.

Complexity or pH are likely not affected by adding additional fermentables. Exposure to oxygen while you add these may detract from any possible benefit.

My vote is NO. Don't mess with what you've started. Wait until your intended bottling point and then just go with what you get.

TD

 

[FredTheNuke]

it should amp up sourness as it will give the pedio something to eat.

 

[Atomos]

My batch seems to be stuck at 1.010. I'm thinking about adding some more bugs. Is that reasonable? I'm thinking about doing the roeselare this time.

Concerns:
Not quite sour enough
Bottle bombs if I bottle at 1.010 FG

History:
4/16/2014 - OG 1.074 (extract kit)
4/24/2014 - 1.015 Racked on currents and pitched brett
5/19/2014 - pitched lacto
6/14/14 - 1.011
10/14/14 - 1.010
2/15/15 - 1.010

Other thoughts were just to stir the crap out of it. ? There is hardly any pellicle on top.

Any suggestions are welcome! I've been trying to be patient, but I'm just worried that i'll never be able to bottle this at such a high FG for fear of bottle bombs. Also, It's probably only a 5/10 on the sour scale and I'd like some more sourness if possible.

 

[TrickyDick]

My batch seems to be stuck at 1.010. I'm thinking about adding some more bugs. Is that reasonable? I'm thinking about doing the roeselare this time.

Concerns:
Not quite sour enough
Bottle bombs if I bottle at 1.010 FG

History:
4/16/2014 - OG 1.074 (extract kit)
4/24/2014 - 1.015 Racked on currents and pitched brett
5/19/2014 - pitched lacto
6/14/14 - 1.011
10/14/14 - 1.010
2/15/15 - 1.010

Other thoughts were just to stir the crap out of it. ? There is hardly any pellicle on top.

Any suggestions are welcome! I've been trying to be patient, but I'm just worried that i'll never be able to bottle this at such a high FG for fear of bottle bombs. Also, It's probably only a 5/10 on the sour scale and I'd like some more sourness if possible.

I don't think that I would stir it.
couple of questions-
Did the currants drop yet? What is the pH if you have a way to measure? What temperature is this sitting at, and does it change at all during the winter months? Was the lacto pitch pure lacto or with pedio as well?

I suppose it is possible that if there have been dips in the temp during the winter, that the yeast and brett and lacto may have flocculated or gone dormant. If so you might rock the carboy to attempt to re-suspend whatever may have flocculated out.

Honestly it could have gone as far as it is going to go, depending on your mashing technique, etc. I haven't measured the gravity of my two carboys in a while. One was below 1.010 another was at 1.011 if memory serves. Strangely, the more sour of the two, into which i pitched roeselare blend from the beginning (the other followed the RR methods detailed in this thread) finished slightly higher than the other done as you have done.

It is possible the lack of pedio may have limited the lactic acid production and drop in gravity? not sure.

What I would do is wait the full year and try to bring temp up to 68-70 degrees if possible for the last two months of your year for this beer finish and check it again before doing anything. You didn't mention adding oak. If you are going to do that you might try doing that now for the last two months of aging. If after two more months, the gravity hasn't budged and you are concerned about bottle bombs, you have a few options: continue waiting to see if it drops further; keg and force carb; bottle and put one into a plastic PET bottle to check for carbonation then once fully carbonated put ALL bottles into fridge and keep them there until you drink them to lower risk of bottle bombs or pasteurize the bottles once carbonated; or consider that its not going to further ferment beyond the terminal gravity you are at and let it ride. I believe corked finished bottle, as long as the cage isn't too snug against the top of the cork may permit some factor of safety by permitting the cork to slide a bit with time perhaps. Some tough decisions. Hope this helps some.

TD