Conical fermenters

[jambop]

I have been watching quite a few review videos of these things and for the cost of them I am struggling to see the advantages that make them worth 200€ more than a humble plastic bucket. I do understand that it is possible to harvest yeast but that about it for me. At first I was thinking yes a conical fermenter is for me but having watched videos I am now thinking ... much ado about nothing . Can anybody convince me otherwise?

 

[sibelman]

Pressure-holding conicals (unitanks) and brew buckets allow closed transfers and spunding, which can reduce heavy lifting and retard staling. Also, I like stainless much more than plastic. For me, yes, 200€ more. But I'm not trying to convince, and course I can't say what's worth 200€ to you.

 

[eric19312]

I brewed a long time in buckets, carboys and then speidel tanks before getting a conical. Made good beer the entire journey in every type of fermentor. You don't NEED at conical. But if some day you have some cash burning a hole in your pocket and realize you WANT a conical go for it they are awesome...

 

[jjpleahy]

Hi all. New here. Didn't want to start a new thread just incase I could be guided to the correct one. Conical caught my eye. I have not had any luck searching forums for a specific answer regarding WINE, not beer. I have followed the usual links of "you will find that thread here". I am looking for help regarding secondary fermentation, using a SS fermenter. Specifically, solutions/ideas for limiting oxidis(z)ation. I will be using a 30 litre conical, that will leave a 7 litre gap of head space, with a 300mm surface area! No marbles as I have a dump valve, I don't have a floating lid, I don't want to spoil the original mix by adding 7 litres of: water/vodka/wine etc. The only solution that I have read about that seems viable is layering a blanket of argon or C02 on top of the fermenting surface. I see people doing this successfully with carboys (tiny surface area) but not a 300mm SS lid opening. Hope I have made myself clear. Any direction much appreciated.

 

[jambop]

I brewed a long time in buckets, carboys and then speidel tanks before getting a conical. Made good beer the entire journey in every type of fermentor. You don't NEED at conical. But if some day you have some cash burning a hole in your pocket and realize you WANT a conical go for it they are awesome...

Yes I see where you are coming from one step at a time gets you there?
I watched a video earlier on where a guy was transferring his cooled wort to a fermenter he was testing/reviewing/ he was given for nothing to demonstrate on youtube. He transferred the cooled wort to this fermenter... he transferred everything in the kettle hops the lot... one assumes to try to prove how good it was at removing sediments . I have never done this I always filter the hops from the wort. Anyway to convince you how good this conical is at removing stuff he has to empty the mason type bottle at the bottom of the fermenter four or five times and each time introduces the volume of that jar back into the fermenter ... I thought that was the sort of thing we were trying to avoid doing ????
On Monday I bottled and kegged 25L of beer directly from a single fermentation in a brewbin fitted with a drain tap . The yeast had formed a solid pack on the bottom of the bucket and the beer transferred was almost clear from the bucket.

 

[Golddiggie]

I made the switch from kegmenters to conical fermenters in early 2020. I went from having to carbonate in serving keg, and then package what wasn't going to stay in serving kegs from that, to packaging directly from conical. I chill the wort as it goes into conical (plate chiller with O2 setup on the wort out side), put the yeast in via a yeast brink (pushed in through the bottom/dump port) and then control temperatures either via the chill coil (these are Spike CF10 units) or a heating pad on the cone. Once fermentation is done, I hook up the carbonation stone to the racking arm and push CO2 into the beer that way. Few days later it's fully carbonated and ready for packaging/drinking. Since I use the chill coils, I bring the finished beer down to carbonating temperature while in conical. I fill a serving keg (2.5 or 3 gallons) and then can the rest. These fermenters are rated for 15psi, which is the minimum I'd recommend. I wouldn't even bother with a conical that wasn't rated to 15psi. IMO, the ones rated for 1 or 2psi are far less useful making you do more steps/transfers than you would need to otherwise.

While I got great beer with the kegmenters, I'm getting great beer that's also easier on ME. The conical fermenters are on locking caster wheels. Which means I can roll them into the garage from the basement room where they ferment (same level) when I need to clean/sanitize/fill. No lifting needed for my setup. I would recommend that any conical you get be setup with wheels to make moving them easier. Unless you get a small one that you can easily lift/carry/move as needed. Brewing alone (currently), with a bad back, means I need to be sure I'm NOT trying to lift 100# (or more) of filled fermenter.

I ferment under pressure with these, which has several benefits. Not the least of which is not needing to use a blowoff hose setup or airlock. I can control the pressure level I want with the spunding valve easily (monitoring with the Spike gas manifold installed on the fermenters). I can also add hop pellets for recipes I want to dry hop once fermentation is done with a O2 purged setup. Reduced oxidization risk is no trivial matter either.

I can also easily harvest the yeast once they finish fermenting the batch as I want (bottom dump port into a different brink setup).

Using the racking arm, I can also be sure I'm extracting clear beer, without needing to use a siphon. Not needing to lift fermenters for gravity feed is no small thing either. Even though I did a CO2 push to transfer out of my kegmenters, I had to guestimate the extraction dip tube length for the fermenter size. I had that dialed in fairly well, but it's easier with a conical. Plus, conical fermenters (IME) are easier to clean once emptied. Well, they are IF you have the items that MAKE it easy. I simply added a CIP ball item and use one of the pump mounted to the brew stand to move hot PBW around in the empty (rinsed) conical. Rinse again and then treat with sanitizer until I'm happy. I was using a sump pump for that, but using HOT PBW doesn't do those pumps much good (unless you get one rated for the higher temperatures). Also, since I already have the pumps on the stand, it's easy to use those.

Conical fermenters are not needed to get great beer. IME, it will make it easier on the brewer to get great beer regularly. I've also found they are easier to clean once things are done and I don't need to worry about infections (never had one). I've been fermenting in stainless vessels since sometime in 2011. Long before kegmenters were a thing, I was using commercial beer kegs I converted over to fermenters.

 

[Rob2010SS]

+1 to this ^^. Not much more to add. All of these are reasons we went with SSBT Conicals. Again, not needed at all, but it makes certain things easier.

The only thing I'll disagree with - they are NOT easier to clean when compared to the stainless buckets or carboys. They take a lot longer as there's more pieces to clean. Other than that, agree with everything that @Golddiggie stated.

 

[Golddiggie]

IME, removing TC fittings is easy. Especially compared with NPT or anything with a nut inside (we're big enough nuts as it is ). My entire setup is all TC connections now. I can strip down what's needed, remove what's needed, and then put back together to do the next cleaning step. I don't remove the lid of the CF10 unless needed (the clamping ring is a pain to put back on).

I'm waiting for the 15 gallon, jacketed, conical from Brewers Hardware to become available (hopefully the current time line is accurate and supply chain doesn't F us again). I want to see how they compare, where I use the fermenters, with the Spike units. If I like them as much as I suspect I will, I'll be selling off the two CF10's I currently have. I might pick up a CF5 for cider and mead though. Or the equal from Brewers Hardware.

I've not used carboys since early 2011 (first half IIRC) so it's been long enough to not recall completely. But knowing that I can blast with HOT water and not worry is worth a TON in my book. All the features of a conical make them well worth the cost. At least for me. As mentioned, they're not for everyone. Your opinion of them (if you get one) will be your own.

BTW, I didn't go with one of the SSBT models because many are NOT pressure rated (IMO, 1 or 2psi is useless for pressure fermenting or carbonating). Or they have odd sized fittings. Or you needed to put holes in the side to fit a chill coil. All sub optimal in my book. Spike and BH offer the same range of features, with some differences. Such as how the lid clamps, chill coils vs jacket, 1-1/2" TC fittings for most with 2" TC for the bottom dump (should be a standard).
Look over all aspects of a conical before you pick one up. You should be able to change fittings, or use the same clamps for everything besides the bottom dump valve. Having that be a 2" makes it better for a range of reasons. Not the least of which is NOT getting plugged up if you have a Tilt inside and don't want to reach into it from above to remove. I'm using the Tilt Pro models, which won't fit through a 1-1/2" TC ferrul/port.

 

[hotbeer]

I am struggling to see the advantages that make them worth 200€ more than a humble plastic bucket.

200€ which is probably about $230 USD to me is about the price range of the next tier or two higher in brewing equipment for any fermenter whether it's conical or not.

You certainly don't have to move to the higher price tiers if you don't need or want to.

If you can make and sell a conical fermenter for the price of a plastic bucket, then send me the info for it if you need crowd funding for your project.

 

[Rob2010SS]

BTW, I didn't go with one of the SSBT models because many are NOT pressure rated (IMO, 1 or 2psi is useless for pressure fermenting or carbonating). Or they have odd sized fittings. Or you needed to put holes in the side to fit a chill coil. All sub optimal in my book. Spike and BH offer the same range of features, with some differences. Such as how the lid clamps, chill coils vs jacket, 1-1/2" TC fittings for most with 2" TC for the bottom dump (should be a standard).
Look over all aspects of a conical before you pick one up. You should be able to change fittings, or use the same clamps for everything besides the bottom dump valve. Having that be a 2" makes it better for a range of reasons. Not the least of which is NOT getting plugged up if you have a Tilt inside and don't want to reach into it from above to remove. I'm using the Tilt Pro models, which won't fit through a 1-1/2" TC ferrul/port.

You must not be talking about the SSBT unitanks. They're pressure rated to 15, same as the others. They don't have odd sized fittings, they're the same as others. It comes with a chill coil. SSBT offers the same features as Spike and BH. The only one they DON'T have is the 2" bottom dump port.

 

[Golddiggie]

I looked at the smaller conical from BH. Their 8 gallon model has the 1-1/2" bottom dump size fittings.

SSBT has too many lines of conicals IMO. Spike has one line. BH has two, technically, since one version has no jacket and the other has the jacket. All of the ones from Spike are pressure rated. Looks like some of the BH models can go either way, but it's a small difference to get it with the clamp to make it pressure fermenting ready.

Half of what SSBT offers are rated to 1psi.

I have a couple of items from SSBT, but I don't plan to get any of their conicals at this time. Since IF I was to do so, it would need to be the jacketed unitank. But those start at 1bbl size, so not going there (yet).

 

[Rob2010SS]

This is the one I have... Why would you have to get the jacketed one?

Not an SSBT fanboy by any means, my next one I plan to get the Brewtools one or the Spike, but just curious why you nixed this one when it has the stuff you say you need is all

 

[Golddiggie]

This is the one I have... Why would you have to get the jacketed one?

View attachment 758213

Not an SSBT fanboy by any means, my next one I plan to get the Brewtools one or the Spike, but you just curious why you nixed this one when it has the stuff you say you need is all

I need to see how I like the Brewers Hardware jacketed conical before I get any others. Since I have the Spike with the coils, I want to see (for myself) how the jacketed conical compares in chilling and such. I also want to see how the insulation between walls helps when the fermenting room is on the cooler side of things (like this time of year where it's in the low 50's). If I can get away with not using any heating elements, I'll be happier.

Don't get me wrong, the chill coil in the Spike units I have works well. I'm just looking to see how the other method works. Especially since chill coils aren't used for larger fermenters (everything above 1bbl, from what I've seen, is jacketed).

 

[Bassman2003]

Gold,

Quick question about conicals, racking arm & dump valve: How much does one need the racking arm if one dumps everything out of the bottom then moves the beer via the dump valve? Seems like the beer would be clear after the dump just like the racking arm. Thanks.

 

[odie]

I've always been jealous of those nice conicals...

But I have since leapt past conical envy and moved on to fermenting & serving in the same keg...

 

[kingmatt]

I started brewing in plastic buckets then moved to big mouth bubblers then to a stainless brewbucket then to a plastic "All Rounder" for pressure fermentation and have now upgraded to a Spike CF5 unitank.

I brewed award winning beers with all these fermenters (except the unitank because I haven't used it yet) but each step up made sense to me at the time based on my set up and what I hoped to accomplish.

I am at a point now in my life where I have the extra coin to spend on a pricey conical and am looking forward to the benefits that have already been mentioned here (yeast harvesting, pressure fermentation etc.), but 5 years ago I never thought I'd own a conical.

If it doesn't make sense to you now to spend the money on one then go with a cheaper option and focus on brewing the best beer you can with that set up. One day you may find that your wallet and priorities are in a place that makes buying a conical the next logical step in your brewing journey, or maybe it never will.

 

[Golddiggie]

Gold,

Quick question about conicals, racking arm & dump valve: How much does one need the racking arm if one dumps everything out of the bottom then moves the beer via the dump valve? Seems like the beer would be clear after the dump just like the racking arm. Thanks.

IME, you'll never get everything out with the dumping. Some will always be on the cone walls. Doing a dump means you'll get more out for things that you dry hop. I didn't dump the last batch, and was able to get the max out the racking arm allows. Since I removed the elbow between the ferrule and the valve (the instructions have the elbow on the cone, then the valve horizontal) I'm leaving less behind. Comes out to less than two quarts of volume left inside (haven't measured in a while). IMO/IME, if you try to package via the dump valve, at least the initial volume coming out will be mixed with trub/yeast slurry. Easy to avoid by just using the racking arm.

I'm not so hard pressed that I care about the final half gallon of liquid in the conical. Plus I make sure the amount going in is enough to give me the desired volume even with what I'll leave behind (dump or no dump). With the racking arm setup, you can rotate it so that it's in any position you want. I typically start with it either horizontal, or on a slight up angle. Then rotate it when I'm nearing the end (to get more out).

The batch I packaged went a couple of extra weeks in conical than I had planned. Still had zero issues. With fermenting under pressure, then carbonating in conical, I didn't open up the thing once the yeast went in. Actually, I used the new yeast brink to push it up through the dump port.

I fit a TC to corny liquid post fitting on the butterfly valve on the racking arm for packaging. Makes things much easier when you want to move the beer. Since I fill a keg before filling cans, I don't lose any beer when changing the connections needed. Means less cleanup once done.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks! What is your opinion of a unitank approach where you would serve out of the same conical you fermented in with a floating dip tube? Basically never transferring the beer but dumping out yeast and trub.

 

[Golddiggie]

Thanks! What is your opinion of a unitank approach where you would serve out of the same conical you fermented in with a floating dip tube? Basically never transferring the beer but dumping out yeast and trub.

Not doing that. My fermenting/packaging area is in the basement. Beer dispensing is the first floor (above that) keezer in the dining area (currently). I put a portion into a keg so I can serve from tap and the rest goes into cans. I'm also serving four of six taps with nitro/co2 mix (over 30psi) so going from conical won't work there. Since the kegs can last a good amount of time (before kicking) I don't want to have a conical tied up and prevent me from fermenting another batch. I have room for at least ten kegs in the keezer. The cans move FAST when I let people know I have the batch packaged. Just waiting for the rush to get the whiskey stout to start. Those 44 cans won't last long.

 

[Bassman2003]

I understand. I am looking at cobbling a small unitank together and since I have never used a conical, just wanted to see if you or other conical users had any issues with serving straight from the conical.

 

[Golddiggie]

If you're talking 6 gallons or less, just get a keg. Torpedo makes 6 gallon kegs (I have two, used one once, now I'm trying to sell them). Instead of trying to cobble something together. Personally, I'd want all parts of that TIG welded and able to withstand full serving pressure levels, plus some. Which means finding someone that's really good at TIG welding.

 

[Bassman2003]

Yes, that is what I am doing. Just wanted to ask if there was any negative from a beer perspective? Sediment, krausen ring falling into the beer etc... Seems like the beer level would fall below the krausen line fairly quickly after a few pulls. Thanks.

 

[k-daddy]

I agree with all the advantages mentioned above regarding stainless conicals (pressure fermentation, yeast harvesting, closed transfers, dry hopping with minimal o2 infiltration, etc.) I've had my Spike CF-5 for several years now with zero complaints. The only downside for me is not being able to stare at the hypnotic yeast party during active fermentation but I got over it.

 

[rhorwitz]

I started with glass carboys, but after having one drop and cutting my foot I moved to plastic buckets. Eventually I started brewing in 10–11-gallon batches which required 2 buckets. 35lb buckets are manageable, but 2nd fermentation is a pain in the neck. My wife purchased me a Fast Ferment 14-gallon plastic conical fermenter. I love it, but it does have drawbacks. First, it weighs roughly 90 lbs full, so it takes two people to move. 2nd it is plastic and must be gently cleaned. 3rd the build quality of the injection molded plastic is below average and the flash around the threads must be cleaned to make it seal. It's a cracking deal at $150 on Amazon. They make a smaller 7-gallon version for $75. I liked it so much that I purchased another one back last Oct. '21. Amazon.com

 

[jambop]

OK so the ground swell is a positive for conical fermenters So I have been looking at the Brewmonk vessels which come in 30L and 55L volumes the 30L would probably be big enough but possibly since I have a brewing capacity of 40L the bigger version may be more sensible ? What are the thoughts on these Chinese made vessels? ... What is not made in China these days

For me the real advantage of the conical fermenter, other than sanitisation, is bottling directly from the fermenter with minimal hassle.

 

[duncan.brown]

I am looking at cobbling a small unitank together and since I have never used a conical, just wanted to see if you or other conical users had any issues with serving straight from the conical.

I do this occasionally when I’m making a Zwickel in my unitank and I want to drink it fresh from the talk, unfiltered. After dumping the yeast, cooling, and spunding to the right carbonation level, you can drink from the tank. If you want to drink beer and not just foam, you’ll need one of these:

https://www.ssbrewtech.com/products/pig-tail?_pos=24&_sid=ede3b5874&_ss=r
The friction in the steel coil reduces the pressure from the 13 psi in the tank to a reasonable serving pressure, similar to a balanced beer line reducing from carb pressure to ~ 1 psi for serving at the tap.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks Duncan!

 

[eric19312]

OK so the ground swell is a positive for conical fermenters So I have been looking at the Brewmonk vessels which come in 30L and 55L volumes the 30L would probably be big enough but possibly since I have a brewing capacity of 40L the bigger version may be more sensible ? What are the thoughts on these Chinese made vessels? ... What is not made in China these days

For me the real advantage of the conical fermenter, other than sanitisation, is bottling directly from the fermenter with minimal hassle.

The Brewmonk looks interesting, at least at that price point. Not going to hold pressure for carbonating or spunding but would probably hold enough pressure to do a closed transfer.

My main concern would be the odd collection of sanitary and not sanitary fittings in areas that will be exposed to the fermenting beer. I had to watch a few videos to find a good pic of the inside of the fermentor and think maybe this is why...

Those threaded fittings inside the fermentor to me take away the point of having tri-clamp fittings on the outside... Also the weld on the dump port, I'd like to see a better image of that one. This isn't just Brewmonk, looks like you can find similar threaded connections inside Anvil fermentors and other lower market units. So maybe not a deal breaker depending on price sensitivity.

Last comment I'd make is the angle of the cone looks like it probably will not dump very well. Appears to be similar angle to what you see on the Spike Flex and SS Brewtech Brewbucket, neither of which even bother with dump valves.

 

[Golddiggie]

Looks like the Brew Monk conical is bottom tier. I wouldn't get anything without all TC fittings where things go into the beer. Lids can be different than that (many are) but everything else should be TC. Threaded fittings means you'll need to take them apart, remove Teflon tape, clean, reinstall (more Teflon tape) and then fully sanitize between uses. IMO, pain in the asp. Those types of fittings leave places for bad things to take hold and ruin your beer (at some point).

While I don't suggest going top tier, don't skinflint on something like this. Also, these are NOT pressure rated. Depending on the thickness of the stainless steel, connection integrity, and how well they seal, it might not even work for pressure transfers.

If that's your only option, then you don't have much choice. I'd seriously look for something better. Save up for a while if you have to in order to get the better product. There's enough companies selling cheap products out there that stay in business even when what they sell is low end and doesn't work all that well. IME, if something appears to a really low cost 'alternative' to something that costs a good amount from many other makers, there's a damned good reason why it's so cheap. Cheaply made, sold cheap, and they STILL make a profit on it. Which means either the components are very low end, the labor used to make them is very low end, or a combination of both (and/or more low cost/end aspects).

 

[jambop]

Naturally

Looks like the Brew Monk conical is bottom tier. I wouldn't get anything without all TC fittings where things go into the beer. Lids can be different than that (many are) but everything else should be TC. Threaded fittings means you'll need to take them apart, remove Teflon tape, clean, reinstall (more Teflon tape) and then fully sanitize between uses. IMO, pain in the asp. Those types of fittings leave places for bad things to take hold and ruin your beer (at some point).

While I don't suggest going top tier, don't skinflint on something like this. Also, these are NOT pressure rated. Depending on the thickness of the stainless steel, connection integrity, and how well they seal, it might not even work for pressure transfers.

If that's your only option, then you don't have much choice. I'd seriously look for something better. Save up for a while if you have to in order to get the better product. There's enough companies selling cheap products out there that stay in business even when what they sell is low end and doesn't work all that well. IME, if something appears to a really low cost 'alternative' to something that costs a good amount from many other makers, there's a damned good reason why it's so cheap. Cheaply made, sold cheap, and they STILL make a profit on it. Which means either the components are very low end, the labor used to make them is very low end, or a combination of both (and/or more low cost/end aspects).

Did you do HiFi before you turned to brewing?