Conical Fermenter Supplier Question

[I_B_Mongo]

Hi all!
Just wanted to know if anybody here has bough from this guy:
http://myworld.ebay.com/stouttanksandkettles/

His prices seem to be pretty good (so long as the bidding doesn't get out of control, and his feedback is @ 100%. Just seemed too good to be true, so thought I'd check with the "pros" on HBT.

Thanks for any and all input. Really want to pull the trigger on getting a SS conical, but just want to get the best value for my money.

I_B_Mongo

 

[Randar]

Hi all!
Just wanted to know if anybody here has bough from this guy:
http://myworld.ebay.com/stouttanksandkettles/

His prices seem to be pretty good (so long as the bidding doesn't get out of control, and his feedback is @ 100%. Just seemed too good to be true, so thought I'd check with the "pros" on HBT.

Thanks for any and all input. Really want to pull the trigger on getting a SS conical, but just want to get the best value for my money.

I_B_Mongo

Just scored a 14.5g conical from his website for $400 (+$75 shipping). Received it last week and it is beautiful. Not all the bells and whistles of the Blichmann stuff and there are one or 2 minor design suggestions I would have, but all in all it is a terrific bang for your buck.

 

[remilard]

It is certainly a good value.

I am a little dismayed by the choice of valve as it introduces threads. The sanitary quality of the design is limited by its weakest part, so if you have any threads why not threads everywhere?

Butterfly valves would have not been too much more expensive and would make a better design, IMO.

 

[Randar]

It is certainly a good value.

I am a little dismayed by the choice of valve as it introduces threads. The sanitary quality of the design is limited by its weakest part, so if you have any threads why not threads everywhere?

Butterfly valves would have not been too much more expensive and would make a better design, IMO.

Where did you see threads? Mine has none and is 100% welded with only tri-clover fittings.

 

[Cliff897]

I looked into doing business with that guy.
Always get any warranty or guarantee in writing before you make a purchase.

http://www.beersmith.com/forum/index.php?topic=2946.0
second page three or four posts down

 

[Randar]

I looked into doing business with that guy.
Always get any warranty or guarantee in writing before you make a purchase.

http://www.beersmith.com/forum/index.php?topic=2946.0
second page three or four posts down

Thanks for the link. I see your point. I wanted something pretty straight-forward and my only concerns were with lid gasket, rotating racking arm, or having an opening for a corny-lid cut in the lid.

I didn't end up asking for anything custom but I did get varied responses to questions asking for modification or greater detail to some of the design choices.

So in short, it is a great product if the basic product fits your needs, but the customer service aspect may leave a little friendliness or open mindedness to be desired.

 

[Cliff897]

Thanks for the link. I see your point.

Did ya see the part about the Warranty?
He says he has no way to address problems. I mean he comes right out and says it.
And then when he's having a hissy fit about the post, he insists that he stands behind his stuff.
Contradictions.

So unless he's got a warranty reduced to a writing, it's hard to know what he's doing. For all I know he is the most honorable guy on the planet (or anything else for that matter). He did seem awfully angry about his answers being posted. I thought his response was a tad histrionic.

I didn't end up asking for anything custom but I did get varied responses to questions asking for modification or greater detail to some of the design choices.

Well he's definitely got a chinese supplier so communications might be an issue. It ought to be as simple as a drawing one should think.

So in short, it is a great product

Maybe. I have never seen one up close.

if the basic product fits your needs, but the customer service aspect may leave a little friendliness or open mindedness to be desired.

Some People - on the internet- say they like the guy. So maybe he can be easy to work with. Or maybe they just have purchaser's loyalty. You how it is when a person buys some thing expensive they are going to spend a fair bit of energy bolstering their choices. Most folks do this without thinking about it.

I'd like to hear from a customer who had to get a unit replaced or repaired.
If the customer service went smoothly then that would make for a pretty good layman's gauge.

Of course on the internet you never know who is who.

I could get on a dozen forums and have different identities stumping for my product or service telling people what a great guy Cliff897 is, and how what he sold me cured my cancer, made my hair grow back, made me young, wealthy, and healthy and now the babes are all over me. Life is great now thanks to that Cliff897 guy!!! yadda yadda yadda

And who would be the wiser?

a person could also be running some company down just to drive business away from the competition hoping to snap it up.


So if the folks down at ACME Gizmos Inc., are telling you that you won't have any issues and if you do they'll stand behind their stuff - smile and get it in writing.

 

[giligson]

I was looking at these about 2 weeks back - he was testing the waters on Ebay with a price around $278 buy it now. I asked him a couple straightforward questions about design and shipping but he never got back to me so I decide to forget about this vendor. If you were going to buy - you get a better price via his website
http://conical-fermenter.com/

I'm still waiting for the CHI company to come up with a decent price small conical.

 

[Randar]

Did ya see the part about the Warranty?
He says he has no way to address problems. I mean he comes right out and says it.
And then when he's having a hissy fit about the post, he insists that he stands behind his stuff.
Contradictions.

He also says he will accept any item that is returned and give a full warranty, which is what he told me. But you're right, get it in writing.

Now, I doubt he's front the return shipping cost, but he gave me the same offer. No, I didn't get it in writing.

But, in the end, I am happy with my purchase thus far. To me, that is the moral of the story. If you want to get into a multi-site pissing match with the guy, have at it. But he was reasonable with me and I like the product I received at a great price.

 

[jawsbc]

I am the Stout Tanks and Kettles guy. For Cliff To say that I have a customer service problem is absurd! The only problem was that Cliff wanted me to quote something that I could not quote with a good conscience, so I didn't quote him. And he apparently didn't like that. If that is bad customer service, then so be it. The world could use more bad service like that, IMO.

I'll say it again. Cliff came to me requesting a special custom-made brew kettle that I do not believe will work well and I told him so. I didn't answer his other questions about warranties, gauge of the stainless steel, etc. - why would I spend time telling him about a warranty for a product I am not going to make for him? As a result, he has a bug in his undies and won't let it go. This is the 2nd time I have had to respond to him now.

I care about my reputation and will take care of my customers. If there is a problem with a fermenter, etc., I'll take it back and refund my customers' money or replace it or find a solution that my customer is happy with. So far, everyone has been thrilled with their fermenters and brew kettles.

Can I personally reweld a fermenter? No. So what? That means that if there is a problem I'll have to replace or refund. Just like if you have a pair of defective Nikes - neither Nike nor the store is going to repair them, they'll replace them or give you your money back.

Lastly, if defending one's business against misconstrued, out of context, and plain wrong statements, is having a hissy fit or engaging in a pissing match then I am guilty of that, too! But, I'd like to point out that I have done everything I can do defend myself and my business without engaging in a pissing match.

Lastly, there are no threads in my fermenters that touch the beer. That was the whole design intent. The ball valves have threads within them, but they are separated from the beer by two internal seals. If you want butterfly valves, I can provide them - they just cost more.

 

[jawsbc]

Giligson - I just resent the message I sent to you on Thu, January 14, 2010 8:19:13 PM in response to your question you sent me the day before.

Cheers,

John at Stout Tanks and Kettles

 

[Cliff897]

I am the Stout Tanks and Kettles guy. For Cliff To say that I have a customer service problem is absurd!

Cliff never said such a thing. In fact the words "customer service " never popped up. I decided that I could not be a "customer."
Plain language reading of the words without all they histrionic mis-interpretation and misplaced anger would go a long way in that department.

Cliff said only things that were dead to rights accurate.
And he quoted your words in the precise context you uttered them.

I asked you some very straight forward questions here's one:
QUESTION 3.) "What is your product warranty?"

YOUR *************ANSWER:
“I don't have the ability to fix problems - my products are made to my specification and I inspect them before accepting them. The welds overall are excellent.”

So there you have it. You put in writing that you have no way to address problems. Your cursory dockside inspection is all there is. Which is great, I guess.
After all, I tell people to get all such promises in writing and you just put it in writing. Unless, you have some other guarantee or warranty maybe published on your website that I failed to see?

Did I fail to see something? Is this all just a huge misunderstanding?
Did you mis-speak when you said that to me ?
I gotta go look at your website and see:
Nope couldn't find any.


I was trying to get at your long term confidence in your product. As I asked in another question about piping & porosity in welds. Any one knows that microscopic porosity is not something you can possibly inspect for on the dockside. It's just not possible to bring an Xray, or magnaflux or microscope and examine every single joint.

And all other considerations aside: You are not a welder, nor are you an engineer, so how would you even know what you were looking at? Plastic Doggy Magnet test?

So, knowing that your Quality Control was limited to a quick "peek-a-boo" dockside, I wanted to know whether you could address those sorts of problems that only show up after a person had been using the things for a spell.

Stress cracks can develop a year or more later being caused by poorly rolled steel or badly performed welding, even mishandling can set up stress cracks. And of course piping & pores in welds might not be problematic for some time. These are things that are outside the customer's control and you most clearly said that you can not address them.

Which left only one possible response if, as you later said, that you stand behind the products. That would be a written guaranteed that you'd replace any defective equipment.


I Suppose you could tell people that you were getting them such a howling good deal that you were not able to offer any warranty. That might even be fair.

But, you ought not to be telling people that one the one hand that you CAN NOT ADDRESS PROBLEMS and then on the other that YOU STAND BEHIND your products.
Those two statements are entirely contradictory.

Are you unable to see that?

The only problem was that Cliff wanted me to quote something that I could not quote with a good conscience, so I didn't quote him.

Wrong.
That was just one of the problems. It is dishonest to offer: "custom made [..] brew kettle" as your site promises. You dedicated a whole web page to it. Refusing to honor your offer because you know better than everybody else is a pretty poor excuse.

So you did it again.
You have been telling falsehoods. Your misrepresentation on your website about custom work was not "The only problem," it was just one.

And he apparently didn't like that. If that is bad customer service, then so be it.

So be it. There you have it. The man wants to be able to tell people that there are no warranties nothing nada zip.
Then, he wants to be believed when he says he will stand behind his work.
OK. Glad to know where you stand on any warranty.

And

You want to reserve for yourself the privilege to tell other people how to do things.
OK. Glad to know where you stand.
Your offer of custom work is a falsehood.

Now that these are all cleared up I feel fully confident.

I'll say it again. Cliff came to me requesting a special custom-made brew kettle

Wong and false (should I use the harsher word?).
I read your offer on your web site where you stated without any reservations or qualifiers that you did custom work.

So you initiated that dialog not me.
You put the sign up, not me.
I didn't come to you. I responded to your offer.
Here is is from your website:

If you need a custom made conical, brew kettle, mash tun, or other "Stout" quality stainless steel vessel, please contact us with your requirements. We'll be glad to provide you with a quote. These are special order items. Please send an inquiry through the contact us page for details and a quote.

Seems pretty clear. you say: "custom made [...] brew kettle"
That's an offer. You made the offer and you went back on your offer.
I keep trying not to use the harsher words for your conduct.

I didn't answer his other questions about warranties

That's another falsehood.
You said and I quote:

“I don't have the ability to fix problems - my products are made to my specification and I inspect them before accepting them. The welds overall are excellent.”

When you said that, you were still looking to make a sale. You only said you wouldn't do the custom job.

gauge of the stainless steel, etc.

I am guessing it's because you are utterly unable to know.
But, please, feel free to to take this opportunity to explain what you do, to check grade of SST, the gauge the welds etc.. I'm sure lots of people would feel more comfy dealing with you knowing that you have the capacity to do Quality Assurance.

((Continued next post due to word count limits))

 

[Cliff897]

- why would I spend time telling him about a warranty for a product

Ahh yes I see so you didn't say:

“I don't have the ability to fix problems - my products are made to my specification and I inspect them before accepting them. The welds overall are excellent.”

That was some internet gremlin adding things to your communications? Some wild freak of electronics put those words in your e-mail? I see.
I ask about warranties and you get to say you can't address problems and that somehow means that you stand behind your products?
Got it.

It bears noting that you at no point in you e-mail indicated that you would not conduct any transaction. It was just the drilling you said no to. So the falsehoods come out again.

But don't take my word for it lets look at your exact words:

"I am a believer in simple solutions and processes, so I would suggest you look into a propane type burner to put your brew kettle on. Fewer fittings to deal with mean cleaner brew and easier cleanup. You are also likely to get significant residue build up on your heating elements, which may damage them and/or be harbingers of bacteria."

That's what you said. There was nothing about how you were unwilling to conduct any transaction. You, in fact, were trying to sell a kettle with no mods.

But, Hey, they're only your exact words.

As a result, he has a bug in his undies and won't let it go. This is the 2nd time I have had to respond to him now.

There is something wrong with holding you to your exact words?

And the second time you have reduced yourself to nothing more noble than some internet a name caller. And one whose falsehoods and reversals just flow like a river.

If you can't handle it when your communications with people regarding your product line end up in places like this then - well - I can't help you. They are going to. Get over it.

I care about my reputation

Then don't waffle on things that are important (like warranties) and learn a little more about your products and don't make offers you won't perform on.

and will take care of my customers. If there is a problem with a fermenter, etc., I'll take it back and refund my customers' money or replace it or find a solution that my customer is happy with.

THERE YOU HAVE IT BOYS AND GIRLS~!! You can hold him to that.
That is an absolute satisfaction guarantee.
It's about like the LL Bean guaranty in that he did not say how long it's good for so, it's as long as you the customer want, your products are guaranteed completely. He didn't say you had to treat them a certain way or that you couldn't make modifications he simply offered an absolute unlimited guarantee of satisfaction. He issued his guarantee "in writing" with absolutely no qualifiers or reservations.

If you wake up tomorrow or after ten years and decide that you want another product from another manufacturer instead, guess what?
He just made an absolute unlimited satisfaction guarantee.
Tell him you are not satisfied. He's gotta take it back and refund your money.

That's a pretty damn good guarantee.

This is the sort of warranty that he should have stated in the first place instead of having me beat it out of him. Hell, it ought to be on your web site in bold clear language. But, it isn't.

I am glad that you have finally decided that a straight forward warranty is the best course.

Lastly, if defending one's business against misconstrued, out of context, and plain wrong statements, is having a hissy fit or engaging in a pissing match then I am guilty of that, too!

Yah, great, except for the fact of quoting your exact words and my questions makes this (once again) an utterly false statement.
You said (and I quote):

“I don't have the ability to fix problems - my products are made to my specification and I inspect them before accepting them. The welds overall are excellent.”

I didn't force that out of you. It was your reply to my question about a warranty.

But, I'd like to point out that I have done everything I can do defend myself and my business without engaging in a pissing match.

Not really. You called names, told falsehoods, invented crap, and stormed about angrily. Maybe the lesson is not promise things only to reverse yourself later and not to try to have the question of warranty both ways.
Put it up on your website.

The ball valves have threads within them, but they are separated from the beer by two internal seals. If you want butterfly valves, I can provide them - they just cost more.

So the images that you had on your website have been deliberately deceptive?
Those valves and fittings didn't get there by themselves.
You put up images of tanks fully outfitted and you ship tanks that were not? And this is the first time you ever addressed the question?
Maybe your site needs a disclaimer.
You know, with language like: "valves and fittings extra."
Or the more honest thing might be to just show the actual product that you will ship.


As an aside on the Quality Assurance issue: There are companies that use the word "Engineering" in their masthead. In the USA you must have on staff an engineer with a license certification as PE (professional engineer) to make such a claim. Earning a PE license is a very big deal it's a lot of work and takes serious brains. It informs the public that they can rely on that certification for everything the company does.


All in all I think you learned some things of great value
1.) A sign or an internet web page describing services offered is, at law, an offer. If you want to qualify it you must do so at the time the offer is made not later when it's convenient for you.

2.) All warranties must be had in writing. Transacting with any entity that offers no warranty is like buying things at a flea market. You get what you walked away with and no more.

3.) If as a retailer offering goods and services to the public, you make certain representations you should expect that people will share them with each other and you cannot control who says what to who else.

4.) It behooves all such retail entities to ensure that their communications to the public are exactly and precisely correct and should expect to be held to account when they are not.

5.) It is a good idea to know the technical details of the products one sells and be able to articulate how you know them.

6.) Waffling around about things like guarantees is a sure fire way to get yourself raked over the coals in public.

 

[TheAleMaster]

For the OP, I ordered from John and was very pleased. He promptly responded to my e-mails and questions, even after I had already received the fermenters. My initial impressions were that the fermenters are of good quality. I plan on using them for the first time this weekend and am quite excited about it. I definitely highly recommend them if you want a SS conical, but don't want to shell out for a Blichmann.

 

[remilard]

Lastly, there are no threads in my fermenters that touch the beer. That was the whole design intent. The ball valves have threads within them, but they are separated from the beer by two internal seals. If you want butterfly valves, I can provide them - they just cost more.

Thanks, you should probably clarify that on your website as that is not a common valve design and while it clearly has threads it is not clear that the threads are out of the beer path.

 

[Cliff897]

For the OP, I ordered from John and was very pleased. He promptly responded to my e-mails and questions, even after I had already received the fermenters.

That's great~!! I’m really glad for ya.

My initial impressions were that the fermenters are of good quality

Mine too. But I have only seen pictures. Mind you I have not once said (or hinted at ) anything critical regarding how the things are made. I even like the brew kettle better than many others I've seen. That little dome in the bottom for the whirlflok is great. I like the little skirt that will capture the propane heat and save you money. I like the idea so well that I intend to impart such an inverted dome to my brew kettle.

This whole dust up began over three things:
1.) his failure to honor his public offer (which is enforceable at law)
2.) His statement that their ain't no warranty (paraphrased)(which he has later recanted).
3.) His inability to handle the fact that people talk to each other.

The putative quality of his equipment was never the issue.

Then he started whining; playing the victim; lying about me; and the other crap about honesty; integrity; arrogance fueled by ignorance; and consistency all jumbled in with his wildly contradictory statements about warranty. He really chapped my britches.

In this thread he actually admitted to what may well amount to the Federal Crime of Deceptive Advertising as it's defined in the 9th Federal District.
He really needs to do something about the representations he's making on his website.


Not for nothing but,
There are other threads here on HBT where brew shops and various businesses etc., have been found to be doing things that people felt were wrong and the people who make the posts about them are applauded for being good enough to the group to publish the information. Hell, they are encouraged by the group to name names.

This is just another one of them.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Ok, there's a guy offering homebrew equipment at a reasonable price. His perception and representation of the product is quite positive, so he is willing to pass savings on to the consumer, resulting in a risk that he deems acceptable. He has no ability to provide a warranty beyond replacement/refund. He has been honest and forthcoming, and there is no indication that he is misrepresenting the product. At least one customer has been very satisfied. At least one possible customer is skeptical of the offer at hand, but does not dispute the vendor's ability to provide a product. The vendor himself is engaged in discussion concerning his product.

By all outward appearance, this is a reputable offer.

 

[jawsbc]

Thanks remilard - I'll do that. I do appreciate good suggestions. (I have added a note to the photo).

 

[jawsbc]

Thank you, Yuri Rage. Several of my customers have jumped in with their positive reviews.

I would like to make a few clarifications:

1. Gauge of Stainless Steel. Regarding the thickness of the stainless on my products, you can find another posting on this website dated 12/13 that gives out this information. Long before I ever exchanged an email with Cliff. Just because I didn't answer that question didn't mean I don't know what I am selling. I specified it, for starters.

2. The ball valves and fittings are included. They are all sanitary by design. A butterfly valve, however, costs more and is a special order item.

3. In fact, I am an engineer. Graduated with high scholarship to boot.

4. Regarding inspection, I have extensive work experience in quality control and inspection technologies. I have a formal inspection procedure that I use for inspecting the fermenters, etc., before they leave the factory. The level of inspection is completely appropriate for this product, which is a cost-effective conical fermenter for homebrewing use. I have also purchased $20,000+ brewery fermenters for my brewery and did a comparable inspection on those as I do on these home brew fermenters.

5. Lastly, all I am trying to do in my responses is to give out straightforward information and give anyone who might be paying any attention to all of this my side of the story. If you choose to buy a fermenter or conical from me, I am confident that you will be very satisfied with the product, communication, and service we offer.

Cheers,

John
Stout Tanks and Kettles

 

[Orfy]

If you have not made a purchase then you are in no place to comment about customer service and satisfaction.

If you have a gripe because the product and company does not meet your requirements then It is a small issue. Go buy some where else.

As always in these threads you are talking about a companies/persons reputation so please keep it relevant and factual.

 

[SweetSounds]

I hope to be doing business with Stout this summer, when I go all grain!
All arguing aside, I'm still a handshake and a promise kinda guy. Maybe I'll call him and talk first, but I've heard nothing but good things about these "Cheap Chinese fermenters". That's good enough for me.

 

[anastasis]

Cliff seems like a real butthurt fellow.

This fermenters look nice. I am trying to sell a 7 gallon older generation blinchmann conical and am lookign to move up to a 15. These are going to be at the top of the list.

 

[BritBrewer]

This whole dust up began over three things:
1.) his failure to honor his public offer (which is enforceable at law)

Having a slight background in British and some European law:

What you are looking at there is a contract. I am afraid that by responding to the advertisement you are not entering in to a contract. Once a transaction has been made you have entered in to a contract. Once a bespoke quote has been provided you may have entered into a contract. At this time you have the opportunity to respond to any alleged false advertisement claims.

The advertisement stating that custom or bespoke fermentation vessels are available on request is not fraudulent. The refusal of the supplier to quote for a bespoke system does not render the advertisement false in any way; you cannot force the supplier to sell you a bespoke fermentation vessel.