conical fermenter heater/cooler

[kosmokramer]

Awesome! I am on the line weather to buy the morebeer version or build one of these, thanks for all the info!

 

[marcb]

I've got my prototype that I won't really use anymore as it's only a 7g conical and I've gone to ludicrous sized batches. I would let it go for $500 complete with heating pad, TEC, and all accessories. PM me if interested.

 

[marcb]

I've got my prototype that I won't really use anymore as it's only a 7g conical and I've gone to ludicrous sized batches. I would let it go for $500 complete with heating pad, TEC, and all accessories. PM me if interested.

Anyone interested before I stick it on CL?

 

[bruin_ale]

I know this is old.. did you put it on cl yet?

 

[marcb]

I know this is old.. did you put it on cl yet?

Nope, still in the attic.


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[bruin_ale]

cool. You've got PM.

 

[kshuler]

Finally got my parts milled... actually I just bought the kit from Stout Kettles and Tanks. I wired and plugged in everything and it tests well... nice layer of ice building up on the cold side, and the warm side seems to be dissipating heat pretty well. I'll test it tomorrow, I think, if I get a chance, on actual beer.

 

[Weezy]

Stout Tanks has a peltier kit also:
http://conical-fermenter.com/Peltier-Kit.html

 

[kshuler]

That's the one I used. Fits perfectly onto the fermentor. Only issue I had was that the posts that attach to the aluminum bar are a little too high... they don't really compress on the peltier and leave a little space. I did manage to get the peltier to fit in there rather snug, but only after adding about 1mm of the thermal paste, and this stuff is supposed to be very thin. I had to file down the posts a little to make a better fit, and now it is snug without so much thermal paste.

 

[geoffey]

I also recently purchased the kit from Stout for my 7.3g conical. In fact I bought two of them so that I'll have a total of 4 peltier's. Put one of the kits together but not having much luck getting them to cool down. I feel like I've tried/tested everything here and cant' figure out what's wrong. I know the peltiers are working (I've tested them quickly by pushing the fan/heat sink off to the side and almost burned my finger when I turned it back on), I've got thermal paste on both sides, I have a good power supply I pulled out of a used PC at work, and I've tried flipping the fans so they pull the hot air off of the heat sink instead of pushing it in (not sure which is correct but they came pre-attached in the position where they push air IN to the heat sink). I'm using the TEC1-12709 peltiers, which looks like the same one others on this thread are using. Any one have any tips? The best I've done is get an existing batch in my conical to drop from 64 to 63 degrees. So ambient is 64 at the moment.

 

[bruin_ale]

Geoff,
Did you test that the cold side actually gets cold? I had a chip recently that I tested to make sure it was working and nearly blistered my thumb - I didn't check the cold side of that one and put it back together assuming that it was working. After a couple days of it not cooling anything down, I decided to switch the chip out for a new one. Big difference - instant frosty on one side and a fairly warm heat sink on the other.

 

[kshuler]

I also insulated the heck out of the aluminum block as well with closed cell foam tape. My fans blow down, as well, but the block still seems to make ice on the chiller plate.

The other thing I found is that the posts on the included fans are too tall to compress on the Peltier, so I had to file about a mm or 2 off of them to get better contact. After this the Peltier was wedged in pretty good and I was more convinced it would make better contact.

I haven't strapped it on to a fermentor yet, and I don't have any of the thermal paste to make a good connection, but one of my brews (in a 12 gallon conical) will be finished tomorrow, after which I will chill and see how it works. You can see my version here

 

[bruin_ale]

Nice writeup. What do you mean by this line?
"I then cut out holes where the Peltier chillers were to go"

Can you show a picture of it? I would assume that you shouldn't have to cut into the block but rather put the chip on there and tighten the heatsink down to form a good connection.

 

[bruin_ale]

oh sorry, I think I understand what you meant now.. you cut holes in the foam tape - not in the aluminum. LOL

 

[rshosted]

Kshuler,

I am getting ready to copy your design. Any chance you could explain how you wired it? (or is it obvious once one has those parts?)

Also, what size peltier chips did you use? (model number by chance?)

I'm meeting a friend tomorrow who has a machine shop to discuss him making me some aluminum blocks. I'm hoping to put 2-4 aluminum blocks on a stout 20 gallon conical, each block with two peltiers. (Knowing this will create a large power drain) but I have access to a 50amp 240 source right where i brew.

Also, that PID controller you used, does that provide dual source so you can heat as well as cool with that controller? (wouldn't that be awesome)

I appreciate any help you can provide. And keep your fingers crossed that I can get some aluminum blocks made for a reasonable price, lol.

thanks,
Ryan

 

[kshuler]

Sorry for the long delay. Work has been brutal and I haven't had time to brew until today. So, my basement is at 70 degrees, but I need to brew for an upcoming event, so I busted out this thing to actually test. Ambient temp is 70, temp of the fermentor is 64, right where I set it. I don't know how low I could go, but am not interested in lagering, so don't need any more chilling than this!

Sorry to not have responded to the last poster. I am not very good at drawing wiring diagrams, but it should be pretty straight forward. I wired up a modified Kal clone for my brewing controller, and tho was far less complicated. The only trick was the heating vs cooling part. I put a switch on that can switch the mode form cooling to heating if needed, and that complicated the wiring a bit. The PID can be switched from cooling to heating as well, and you have to switch both the PID and the switch on the controller, otherwise it won't work. It should work much better as a heater than a chiller. It would be great if it could auto switch from heating to cooling, but this is not possible with my setup.

 

[kshuler]

Just an update... I finished insulting the fermentor today. Used 1" armaflex sheet insulation with sticky backing. Once it was insulated, I tested the system again, and found that one of my Peltiers was not working properly... So I think I could easily have gone below 64 degrees while brewing. It appears only one peltier may have been working, and while brewing, the fermentor was only insulated with a single thin sheet of reflectix which only covered about half of the surface area.

I was able to get ice to form inside my empty fermentor after about 15 minutes of running today. Can't wait to try this baby out on some actual beer!

Here are some pics

 

[geoffey]

Very nice! Question for you or others doing a similar build: how much thermal grease have you used between the aluminum plates and the conical?

Reason I ask is that I'm getting only 12 degree temp drop from ambient and not at all getting close to an ice build up. But when I pull the peletiers off and test them they are getting down past freezing.

Also, where did you get that insulation?


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[kshuler]

I used quite a bit. I bought some packets on ebay and probably used 10 tubes at least between the fermentor wall and the heat block. I should also say I am overdriving the pelters-- I think they are being run at about 15 volts.

Klaus

 

[jeffmeh]

It is bad practice to insult your fermenters. It pisses of the yeast.

 

[kshuler]

I find that a good insult on top of the insulation on the fermentor seems to keep the temperatures more in line. It has to earn my respect and a few insults keep it in its place.

I would NEVER insult the yeast, though!


Love auto-correct.

 

[geoffey]

Guys, I could use some help here. I've been working on my Stout 7gal heated/cooled build (similar to documented in this thread) for going on 6 months now and I just can't for the life of me figure out why I can't get ANY performance out of this system. So here's my details:

I purchased the 7.3gal Stout conical, and at the same time picked up their peltier kit which included the aluminum blocks as well as the heat-sink fans. I picked up TWO of them, hoping to get some great lagering performance (easily keep my beer in the low 50's range). So that means I'd have 4 peltiers on a 7.3 gal system. I'm using the same peltiers that many on this thread have used.

At first I thought the problem was my power supply being under powered. So I went out and bought a new 600w power supply from a local computer supply warehouse. I've experimented with the fans pointed both in and pointed out. I then thought perhaps the problem was I wasn't using enough thermal paste, so I went out and bought a 40g tub and smeared that all over both sides of the peltiers as well as completely all over between the aluminum blocks and the side of the fermenter. I've insulated the fermenter. I've tested the peltiers when disconnected from the aluminum blocks and they are absolutely cooling down into the 30f range. I measured the temp on the aluminum blocks while not attached to the conical and with the peltiers attached, and I measured at least a 15-20 degree temp change on the aluminum block in a 30 minute period.

But when I attach the damn things to the conical I can't get them do bring the temp down any more than 10 degrees past ambient. Ambient has been around 78f in my basement. So WTF is going on? I'm getting really really discouraged here. I had initially saved up for the Morebeer heated/cooled conical, but when I saw this thread and realized I could build my own for MUCH less I pulled the trigger on it. But man it is disappointing that I can't make it work!

I'll take pictures of what ever you guys need me to. If anyone can offer help (a few on this thread have already tried) I'd really appreciate it. Let me know if I'm leaving out any details needed to help.

 

[kshuler]

Tell you what...

I need to test this now that I have insulated it. I'll run downstairs and set the thing for 50 and see if it ever gets there. Basement is now 68 degrees. Maybe it won't work as well as it appears it is going to. Never tried to lager, never tried to cold crash. Have only tested it at 64 degrees when ambient was around 70-72, which is not that tough of a test. But it held it perfectly at 64.

As for the fact that one of my pelters wasn't working, I only found that out because I have an amp meter on my 12v power supply (set to 13.8 v) and it was about half what it should have been. I don't know for a fact if this was the case during my fermentation-- it is conceivable that both Peltiers were working fine at the time.

Another thing I did was insulate the aluminum block, as well... I covered the whole thing with closed cell foams it was not in contact with air at any location. Not sure if this helps much or not.

I'll fill the fermentor with water and see how she does tomorrow afternoon.

Klaus

 

[kshuler]

Started the test. The temp doesn't drop very quickly. Plugged in my brewbit to monitor the temp of ambient and there water inside and set the target temp for 40 degrees. I work tonight and will check the temp in the morning.

 

[dmcman73]

For those that are using thermal paste between your conicals and the heat sink, have you guys looked at using a thermal pad? http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/...cs/Products/Product_Catalog/~?N=7234402&rt=c3

Also, does anyone have the PDF that the OP posted back in 2013? The link is dead to that PDF. Thanks!

 

[geoffey]

Here is what I believe are the original plans. These are found on the Stout Tanks website.

 

[drksky]

I saw something mentioned earlier in the thread about ice forming on the inside of the empty fermenter. Won't that, well, freeze the wort and be generally bad for the yeast?

 

[kshuler]

Good morning.

Came home from a night shift to find that the power had gone out to the conical. I plugged it back in this morning but there was about a 5 hour delay in the test, during whig time the temp rose a bit. Top of the graph shows the temp of the 6 gallons in the fermentor and the bottom graph shows ambient temperature over the night and morning. The long straight line is where no data was being sent as the power strip went out.

Looks like it is going to level out at around 50-51 degrees after about 24 hours. This is around 18-19 degrees below ambient. I may let it sit until I go to bed tonight and see if it goes any lower, but my basement never gets above 75ish, and I ferment always around 64. In other words, it works well enough for me.

As for ice forming... I do not think it is a problem for the yeast. it was a TINY bit of ice, at first I thought it was just condensation, but when I slid my finger over it, there was a thin veneer that slid to the side. And that was with no liquid in the fermentor. If there is liquid, there will be enough thermal mass that no ice should form, and the cold denser liquid should fall, starting some thermal circulation within the fermentor. This should prevent ice from ever forming when liquid is inside. But i can check after I unplug everything.

So, with a single PID, I am just at the border of being able to lager, BUT, when the beer is actively fermenting, I do not know if it will be able to deal with the extra heat of fermentation.

I tried to calculate the cooling power of the device based on the weight of the water and rate of chilling, and initially it appeared to be pulling almost exactly 40 watts of cooling power.

Klaus

 

[geoffey]

Well I think ONE issue might be that I'm not getting good enough contact between the aluminum blocks and the conical. I pulled them off tonight and here's what is saw:




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[geoffey]

Here is a picture of the bottom of my heat sink next to the Peltier. Notice the Peltier outsizes the heat sink. Is this normal in anyone else's setup? Or does your heat sink completely over the Peltier?

My setup uses the Stout Tank kit. I'm using the same 40mm x 40mm Peltier as many other are in this thread. I'm wondering if the reason I'm getting such poor performance has to do with the size of the heat sink compared to the Peltier.


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