Confusion and Common Mistakes Made When Ordering Grains?

[Yesfan]

I'm just wondering what do you guys look for when ordering the right ingredients for a given batch? For instance, if a recipe calls for x amount of carapils and you go to order from an online dealer, how do you know it's "Caramel Pils" or "2 Row CaraPils" To order? I know about brands like Briess, Crisp, and Weyermann, but was curious about the more common names like (another example) Pale Ale and Pale Ale Malt? Looking at the various online retailers, one has offerings for base malts listed as:

Belgian Pale Ale
Briess Pal Ale Malt
Crisp Pale Ale
Weyermann Pale Ale Malt


I've being brewing close to two years, but I still feel new to all-grain as far as grain knowledge goes. If I were making an American pale ale, I know enough not to order the Belgian Pale Ale or that "Pale Ale Malt" is not the same as "Pale Ale" if a recipe called for 2 Row (which would be the Crisp Pale Ale in the list?), but I could easily see how that can be very confusing to someone completely new to it.

What would you guys advise for those who are doing their 1st or 10th all-grain batch? What would be the common mistakes to avoid when ordering ingredients? What do you look for if the ingredients in a recipe can be seen as vague for less experienced brewers?

 

[itchygomey]

I put every recipe into beersmith and tweak a little. Then i order what i need based off of the recipe in beersmith. I dont have to order often though because i keep most common ingredients on hand.


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[Qhrumphf]

Crisp Pale Ale is an English malt, that as far as I'm aware is their "best of" for that crop year. At least according to Midwest. I usually stick to specific Maris Otter.

Briess Pale Ale malt is a US 2 row malt that's kilned similar to the English malt above. It's similar (and cheaper), but not the same. I did a side by side a couple years ago of US Pale Ale malt (used the Briess one) and Maris Otter in an otherwise identical recipe. You could tell the difference, and the MO was much better for the style. However, I started using the Pale Ale malt in my occasional American styled beers since it has more character than the regular 2 row (which I believe Briess calls 2 Row Brewers Malt).

I've never used Belgian (Dingemans or Castle, I'd assume?) or Weyermann Pale Ale (German) malts, but I would assume they're similar to the US Pale Ale malt, kilned a little darker than their normal continental counterparts in a similar fashion to English malts and have a little more character.

I generally go one of two ways. I either use proper Pilsner Malt for continental beers (I'm a big fan of Weyermann's Floor Malted Bohemian Pilsner), or I'll use Maris Otter (I like both Crisp and Thomaws Fawcett). I find regular US 2 row to be incredibly boring, and I rarely use it. If you want to use an American malt, definitely go with a domestic Pale Ale malt, but that's just my 2c.

 

[Yesfan]

^^^ Great info. Thanks for posting it. I'm a bit familiar with all grain process of brewing, but I would like to see more topics on why some base malts (or any malts) are preferred over others in this section.

My next beer is a going to be a pale ale. I love a good pale ale, especially during the summer months. I did a half batch earlier this year and may repeat it as I drunk the last one a couple of days ago. I'm going to look at what I ordered last time and maybe change up the grain bill. Would you choose MO over 2 Row or other Pale Ale Malt for the base malt?

Anyone know of a good read on what makes some malts preferable over others for a particular style of beer?

 

[ericbw]

^^^ Great info. Thanks for posting it. I'm a bit familiar with all grain process of brewing, but I would like to see more topics on why some base malts (or any malts) are preferred over others in this section.

My next beer is a going to be a pale ale. I love a good pale ale, especially during the summer months. I did a half batch earlier this year and may repeat it as I drunk the last one a couple of days ago. I'm going to look at what I ordered last time and maybe change up the grain bill. Would you choose MO over 2 Row or other Pale Ale Malt for the base malt?

Anyone know of a good read on what makes some malts preferable over others for a particular style of beer?

MO gives you a maltier, slightly heavier result. I have started using half MO and half Briess 2 row for an Irish red. Much better than when I used all 2 row. I did that because the MO was twice as much. I think I have found a store where it is almost the same price, so I might try all MO next time.

Based on the comments above, pale ale malt might be a good option, too.

I like using American ingredients because its more local. Still to get closer to style, Belgian or German malts might be better.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I neglected to mention that the side by side I did was in an English Bitter, and was looking to see if US Pale Ale malt was an acceptable substitute for a Maris Otter.

Regular US 2 row is very cheap. Maris Otter (and other English malts) are usually very expensive. US Pale Ale malt tends to fall somewhere in between. I buy my base malt by the 55lb sack, so in bulk the differences aren't as noticeable. But if you're buying them by the pound or 10 lb bag, you'll definitely see a cost difference.

Where US 2 row has almost no character to it, Maris Otter is very full, bready, and toasty. It's complex and flavorful. US Pale Ale malt isn't as complex, not as bready, but does have a toasty note to it. You might even be able to get that flavor buying regular 2 row and toasting it yourself if you'd like.

I know a lot of folks like to blend their base malts as indicated above. I'll do it with Munich or Vienna and other malts, but generally with lighter base malts, I just use one, but that's just a personal preference.

So I guess it comes down to what you're looking for and what you're looking to spend. I think Maris Otter would go great in US beers, but that's also my preference, and I tend to like maltier US beers. If you're brewing English styled beer, absolutely use an English base malt (Crisp Pale Ale will work, as will Maris Otter, Optic, Halcyon, Golden Promise, etc). But if you like brewing American beers, Briess Pale Ale malt would probably be a good bet. Rahr makes a Pale Ale malt too, it's cheaper than Briess and not quite as good, but good enough. I know that Great Western makes one too, but I don't have access to their malts, so I've never tried it. There's probably other maltsters in North America making it too.

 

[masonsjax]

This is a good write up on the differences in several common base malts:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/English-Base-malt-comparison.html

Really you cant go wrong when it comes to base malt selection. IMO recipe formulation is one of the least important aspects of brewing. If the ingredients are fresh and the process is good, the beer will be good. So many brewers, especially new brewers immediately focus on creating recipes when they haven't yet figured out how to get a healthy fermentation, or other aspects of their process are resulting in flawed beer. Once you've got all that down, playing with recipes can be fun, but making great beer is more rewarding than making an interesting recipe.

 

[Yesfan]

This is a good write up on the differences in several common base malts:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/English-Base-malt-comparison.html

Really you cant go wrong when it comes to base malt selection. IMO recipe formulation is one of the least important aspects of brewing. If the ingredients are fresh and the process is good, the beer will be good. So many brewers, especially new brewers immediately focus on creating recipes when they haven't yet figured out how to get a healthy fermentation, or other aspects of their process are resulting in flawed beer. Once you've got all that down, playing with recipes can be fun, but making great beer is more rewarding than making an interesting recipe.

I agree. There's SO much for me to learn about this hobby. I'm still working on dialing in fermentation (I bought a book on yeast not to long ago). I'm sure 5 years down the road I'm still going to be asking more questions than answering.

 

[Yooper]

I agree. There's SO much for me to learn about this hobby. I'm still working on dialing in fermentation (I bought a book on yeast not to long ago). I'm sure 5 years down the road I'm still going to be asking more questions than answering.

Don't worry about asking questions- I'm always learning something new and I never get bored! I think that there is always something new and interesting to tackle in this hobby, so you never can know it "all"!

 

[Dirty25]

Weyerman pale malt is basically the same as American 2 row, brewers 2 row, or breiss 2 row. It's just grown and malted in Deutschland.

Unless your looking for something really specific just order the cheapest grain

 

[charliehorse]

I've found, through experimentation, that I like MO as the base malt in all of my recipes. You might prefer the taste of Golden Promise or something else. Next time you're in an area where they have a really good brew shop, where you can compare the grains side-by-side (color, taste, aroma), take advantage of the opportunity. As far as the different types of 2-row malts go, I'm sure that there really isn't a chicken lip's difference between them as far as color, taste and aroma go.

 

[masonsjax]

I basically decide on brewday which base malt I will use in that day's recipe. They're all a little different, some more than others, but I like them all.

 

[QuercusMax]

It seems like the original question hasn't entirely been answered. There seems to be confusion as to whether "Pale Ale" = "Pale Ale Malt" = "Belgian Pale Ale Malt" = "Pale Malt".

First off, I wouldn't worry about whether it says "Pale Ale" or "Pale Ale Malt". Those are the same. "Pale Malt", however, is something different. That's also known as 2-row or Brewer's Malt. Almost all the malts you're going to be used are derived from 2-row barley, but for whatever reason Pale malt is often called just plain 2-row.

In terms of base malts, Pilsner malt is the lightest in color. Pale malt is a bit darker, and has a very neutral flavor. Pale Ale malt is darker still, and has more flavor than Pale malt.

For each of the base malts, you're going to get different flavors depending on the country of origin, maltster, and grain variety. Maris Otter, Optic, Golden Promise, and Halcyon, for example are particular cultivars of barley, and they are *generally* used to create a English Pale Alt malt. US Pale Ale malt is generally more neutral in flavor than Belgian, English, or German pale ale malts.

You won't ruin your beer if you use a different base malt, but you'll get something different. You might think of it like different kinds of meats - Pilsner malt is like chicken, 2-row is like pork, and Pale Ale malt is like beef. If you're making a very simple delicate beer without a lot of hops or specialty malts, you'll probably notice the difference, much like a plain grilled chicken is obviously different from plain grilled steak. But if you're making a gigantic hop bomb porter full of roasted malts, you might not notice the difference nearly as much. Just like if were to make a sausage packed with habaneros, garlic, and indian spices, it may be difficult to taste the underlying meat that is used as the base.

Similarly, different crystal malts tend to have different flavors depending on where they're from and who makes them. They may be interchangeable in a general sense (for example, you have a recipe that calls for Caramunich (45L) and substitute American Crystal 40, or a British light crystal), but you will get different flavors out of them.

As for Carapils vs Caramel Pils, Carapils is a trademark of Briess. It's what's known as a Dextrin malt, in that it's a very light crystal malt that primarily adds body and head retention. There are some differences between the dextrin malts (what they are, I can't say for sure), but they are fairly interchangable.

 

[Yesfan]

I'm glad I started this topic. So much info. From what I'm taking away.......

1) Using the wrong base malt is not going to make a bad beer, just a different good tasting beer (provided the rest of the brew process goes good).

2) Formulating or tweaking recipes is fun, but not as important as mash temps, fermentation temp control, etc.


Just to clarify, there's always room for improvement for me in the more important areas of my brewing process that you guys mentioned. I haven't forgot that and it's still something I try to improve on each brew session. I also just want to know more about why certain types of malts are preferred over others for a particular beer. This post is more about curiosity than how it can improve my brewing skills.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I'm glad I started this topic. So much info. From what I'm taking away.......

1) Using the wrong base malt is not going to make a bad beer, just a different good tasting beer (provided the rest of the brew process goes good).

2) Formulating or tweaking recipes is fun, but not as important as mash temps, fermentation temp control, etc.


Just to clarify, there's always room for improvement for me in the more important areas of my brewing process that you guys mentioned. I haven't forgot that and it's still something I try to improve on each brew session. I also just want to know more about why certain types of malts are preferred over others for a particular beer. This post is more about curiosity than how it can improve my brewing skills.

Within reasonable limits, sure. Regardless of which base malt you use, a properly brewed beer can still be a tasty beer.

However, when it comes to trying to nail down and perfect a certain style of beer (say, an English Bitter or a Pilsner), the base malt you use becomes very important. I wouldn't try to use a continental Pilsner malt to brew a Bitter, and I certainly wouldn't use an English pale ale malt to brew a Pilsner. The end result may taste good, but it wouldn't be true to what you're going for.

Now, how much that matters is up to you. If you aim to do well in competition, it can become pretty important.

I guess the point is that recipe will rarely make the difference between drinkable beer and drain pour (unless the recipe is REALLY bad or you're brewing a style that you know you hate). That's all process stuff (pitching enough yeast, controlling fermentation, sanitation, removal of chlorine/chloramine, etc), and it's wise to stick to proven recipes unless those basic processes are down solid.

When recipe matters is taking a beer from being just drinkable to good, or from good to great. And for the record, while I'd group basic mashing process in with the above, I group the actual mash temp in with recipe. As long as you're in the right range for conversion, you'll make beer, just maybe not what you wanted.

 

[VladOfTrub]

The data sheet for the malt being used is good to refer to. There are different varieties of barley that can be used to produce the same style/name of malt. You might want to get a data sheet on what one malster calls pale malt and compare the data to what another malting firm calls pale ale. There are numbers on a data sheet that help a brewer to determine the best brewing method for the malt. Weyermann use a bar code number on every sack of grain. E-mail the number to Weyermann and they will provide the spec sheet for the grain in the sack and the location it was grown. Protein level, nitrogen level, Kolbach, beta to alpha ratio, viscosity, can vary between different malting firms producing the same malt.