Confused: Trying to identify flavor

[J_Flint]

Hi guys. Been lurking here for about a year now and can generally find the information I need by searching past threads but I'm really stumped this time.

I have recently grown fond of English style Pales/Bitters. There is a certain flavor to them that I have always identified with the ubiquitous descriptor "fruity/estery."

I had been doing some reading about diacetyl because I had never once come across a beer with any flavor I could describe as buttery or butterscotch. After perusing some threads I read many people saying that many of the beers I had come to find share this flavor quality that I had likened to esters also had strong diacetyl flavors.

Sam Smith
Old Speckled Hen
Wychwood Hobgoblin

Again, I have never detected a buttery flavor, but this fruity or estery character I detect I would never say it's like a bright fruitiness like tart tropical fruit, or citrus. I would more describe it like a full, round, overripe fruit. Like fruit that has been on the counter too long and lost its sharp, bright flavor. In both Speckled Hen and Wychwood this character is more in the background, in any Sam Smith beer I've had it's very present and actually a bit overbearing. Sam Smith pale ale especially and I know everyone always says that Sam Smith has that distinct quality so I'm wondering if that quality is precisely what I detect too.

Are these flavors/aromas I'm finding actually esters? And I simply cannot detect diacetyl? Or am I confusing what actually is diacetyl with an ester quality?

I know this is all very perception based and subjective to each individual taster, but any input would be much appreciated.

TLDR: Is it possible to confuse fruity esters with diacetyl? Does anyone fond diacetyl to taste different than the common butter descriptions?

 

[Dland]

You're right that it is all very subjective. Diacetyl to me is sort of buttered or creamed corn, and I generally try to avoid it in my beers, not that it is the worst "off" flavor in my opinion.

If I had to guess, the flavor qualities you like in the English style beers are delivered by in part by the choice of yeast. Eg; S-04 vs US-05, with 0-4 tending to produce a more English type flavor.

 

[J_Flint]

You're right that it is all very subjective. Diacetyl to me is sort of buttered or creamed corn, and I generally try to avoid it in my beers, not that it is the worst "off" flavor in my opinion.

If I had to guess, the flavor qualities you like in the English style beers are delivered by in part by the choice of yeast. Eg; S-04 vs US-05, with 0-4 tending to produce a more English type flavor.

I agree it is a yeast derived flavor. I have fermented several batches with both S04 as well as WLP002 and pushed ferm temp to try and create these flavors. It still always seems to fall short and end up very clean. I recently made an ESB with 002 fermented at 70 degrees and packaged within 7 days. CLEAN. Not a whiff of butter, or fruitness at all. Just good clean malty flavor. Nothing like any of the beers I have mentioned.

 

[J_Flint]

Here is an excerpt out of an article written by Josh Weikert. From the section: Sensory Confusion

". Rich, bready melanoidin aromas can (apparently, because I’ve done it) be mistaken for diacetyl—I had to train the sensory hook out of myself with a healthy serving or six of Old Speckled Hen (which, for those who’ve never tried it or noticed, is an absolute showcase of diacetyl)"

I just finished a four pack of OSH, enjoying one each evening earlier this past weekend. I was deliberately trying to pick apart this beer desperately trying to find this buttery flavor that so many people say it has. I got nothing. A modest malty flavor, a touch of hops and bitterness, and then in the background of both the flavor and aroma, that "fruity" character.

Anyway I absolutely loved the Old Speckled Hen, and especially that fruity character. I've been trying to replicate this character in my brewing lately and cannot for the life of me figure out what it is or how to attain it.

Does anyone else detect this character in Old Speckled Hen? Either or I suppose; the fruitiness that I perceive, or the butter....that I don't.

 

[jswillbrewforbeer]

I've learned recently that everyone has different perception thresholds for different aromatic compounds and that I personally struggle with detecting diacetyl in beer. I think it tastes different depending on the beer it's in and I definitely agree that it can blend in with or be confused for malt derived flavors, (caramel, toffee, butterscotch.) Never had OSH but I'm becoming familiar with Samuel Smith beers and can say that I can detect diacetyl in almost all of them, especially Taddy Porter. English ales for me also tend to have that "indescribable English Ale quality," just like German lagers have that "indescribable German lager quality." I think its a combination of water salts, (tastes almost a bit tart to me,) low diacetyl, esters and hops.

 

[J_Flint]

I've learned recently that everyone has different perception thresholds for different aromatic compounds and that I personally struggle with detecting diacetyl in beer. I think it tastes different depending on the beer it's in and I definitely agree that it can blend in with or be confused for malt derived flavors, (caramel, toffee, butterscotch.) Never had OSH but I'm becoming familiar with Samuel Smith beers and can say that I can detect diacetyl in almost all of them, especially Taddy Porter. English ales for me also tend to have that "indescribable English Ale quality," just like German lagers have that "indescribable German lager quality." I think its a combination of water salts, (tastes almost a bit tart to me,) low diacetyl, esters and hops.

Right! It is quite indescribable. To me Sam Smith (especially their pale ale) tastes like what I would call estery. Based on what I've read and heard about ester flavors I would say that beer is an outright ester bomb. It's like the forefront flavor of that beer. Now I don't detect any sort of butter flavor or aroma at all in that beer. That's what confuses me.

 

[McKnuckle]

I love Sam Smith beers and know that flavor/aroma well. I've been on a quest, off and on, for a while to approximate some of their salient qualities. It's apparently not easy!

Besides the Yorkshire square aspect which is generally impractical to replicate for us, I've learned one thing based on info from Yorkshire breweries (including Black Sheep and Theakston). The beers apparently spend only a short time in primary (3 days), then are removed from the yeast and conditioned at 10ºC (50ºF). This supposedly reduces what we refer to as "cleaning up." In other words, by doing this, the brewers are intentionally preserving esters and yeast character rather than trying to suppress it as a fault.

Additionally, while in the square, the yeast are vigorously roused and oxygenated by pumping wort over them every 6 hours. This keeps them mixed in the wort (they are highly top-gathering), but must also produce flavor attributes.

I actually got my hands on Sam Smith yeast from a bottle of Stingo, the only product they make that's bottle conditioned. The bottle was several years old but I managed to harvest and grow it up. I've brewed with it twice now, and while it made an acceptable English beer, it was nothing remotely like Sam's itself. After a lapse of a few months, I'm giving it another shot using a different fermentation regimen. I didn't detect the desired character in the FG sample, so we'll see.

 

[J_Flint]

So do you think that the Sam Smith flavor is more like....estery? That's what I get and am just looking for some confirmation because I only say "estery" based on what I've read. I don't detect any diacetyl in any SS beer I've had.

I love Sam Smith beers and know that flavor/aroma well. I've been on a quest, off and on, for a while to approximate some of their salient qualities. It's apparently not easy!

Besides the Yorkshire square aspect which is generally impractical to replicate for us, I've learned one thing based on info from Yorkshire breweries (including Black Sheep and Theakston). The beers apparently spend only a short time in primary (3 days), then are removed from the yeast and conditioned at 10ºC (50ºF). This supposedly reduces what we refer to as "cleaning up." In other words, by doing this, the brewers are intentionally preserving esters and yeast character rather than trying to suppress it as a fault.

Additionally, while in the square, the yeast are vigorously roused and oxygenated by pumping wort over them every 6 hours. This keeps them mixed in the wort (they are highly top-gathering), but must also produce flavor attributes.

I actually got my hands on Sam Smith yeast from a bottle of Stingo, the only product they make that's bottle conditioned. The bottle was several years old but I managed to harvest and grow it up. I've brewed with it twice now, and while it made an acceptable English beer, it was nothing remotely like Sam's itself. After a lapse of a few months, I'm giving it another shot using a different fermentation regimen. I didn't detect the desired character in the FG sample, so we'll see.

 

[McKnuckle]

I am not an expert on diacetyl, but a browse on the interwebs will show you that many people claim it's in Sam Smith beers by design. So I have always accepted that assertion. In fact their India Ale is sometimes cited as "the" beer to taste in order to experience a pleasant level of diacetyl.

 

[Qhrumphf]

There's a few things going on here:

1) definite esters, especially in Sam Smith

2) oxidation. English beers are particularly difficult to find fresh.

3) haven't looked at recipes to confirm, but possible that brewing sugars are at play. Very common in British beers, and they often contribute to the fruit character (much like they do with Belgian beers, invert sugar and candi syrup being somewhat related)

4) I'd say its unlikely that you're perceiving diacetyl as your fruit character as opposed to the other three above, though it could play a small part in it.

If you're hunting for butter, I'd suggest trying a different approach. You could be diacetyl-blind, or you may just perceive it differently. I seldom perceive diacetyl as "butter" myself- if I do it's with age, especially as a result of hop creep, and it's butterscotch. Rather, I perceive diacetyl as a watery alcohol-like note, mostly in flavor and mouthfeel and aroma to a much lesser extent. In low levels, it makes a pleasant smoothness I enjoy. Point is, I don't usually get "butter" either, unless it's EXTREME levels.

I would try a controlled dose- use a neutral beer (Miller Lite is ideal), and add a known quantity of diacetyl (dosing kits can be bought). Taste an unadulterated sample alongside the doctored one. Caveat there is that dosed flaws don't always present the same way they might show up organically in the real world. But it should give you an idea what to look for.

 

[J_Flint]

Thanks for the detailed reply. I'll definitely get around to a controlled taste test sooner or later. I tried a Pilsner Urquell and Shipyard Pumpkinhead last night. I thought I sort of tasted a buttery/popcorny taste in the Pilsner, and if it was present in the Pumpkinhead it was pretty well covered by the nutmeg and pie spice character in that beer. However I did get sort of a slick/lingering tongue feeling sort of when -sorry, gross- I bite my nails after applying hand lotion...weird analogy I know. Lol.

I think in the Pilsner I may have been perceiving a DMS character as well which contributed to a popcorny flavor as well, but I definitely got that slick feeling with both beers. I'd say I'm more confident that what I taste in the English beers is not diacetyl. At least not in large part.

If anyone has any tips on fermentation methods and or yeast strains to get that beautiful English character in my beer PLEASE DO TELL! I do have temp control and a mini conical.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Czech lagers are good diacetyl training. I'd have to look at my notes, but one I recall was HEAVY diacetyl, while others have none. Urquell is middle of the road from what I recall (though having never been to Prague I've been limited to what's on shelves at whatever age).

 

[Northern_Brewer]

It gets messy, Urquell is the usual reference point for Czech diacetyl but from what I've read it seems less obvious once it crosses the Atlantic.

But sensitivity plays a big part in these things - one of the reasons Cloudwater is so (Ed:*too*) clean is that one of their guys is a diacetyl super-taster so they've always paid a lot of attention to cleaning up during/after fermentation, maintaining yeast health etc. I had a drinking buddy who was super-sensitive to butyrate which meant that if there was a hint of bacterial contamination the beer would reek of baby sick to them, when it seemed fine to the rest of us.