Confused! power but no heat.

[zazbnf]

ok I am confused, I recently finished my electric build based on the diagram below from P-J. Fired it up for the first time tonight using water. I have power at the elements, however the elements do not heat up. I have done some testing, using camco 5500w elements, results are:

element pole to ground = 120v each side
element pole to pole = 0v (should this be 220???
resistance across element poles 10.6 ohms

Both elements have same readings, I do not have an amp meter but may try to borrow one from a buddy and get some readings.


Here is the schematic I am working from.

 

[mux]

You may have a phase issue.

 

[RDWHAHB]

Yep, sounds like you have the same 120 vac leg to both sides of the element. You need to grab both legs (two different phases).

 

[zazbnf]

Thanks, hadn't considered that. My power is coming from a 50a welder plug that I have used for years with my welder into a spa panel via my welder extension cord (the cord is 4/3 SOOW) then from spa panel into my brewery control panel.

Is there a way to use my meter to test if I got the phases mixed up somewhere?

Thanks

 

[RDWHAHB]

I'm sure the existing welder plug is good. Test the 2 legs where they enter the panel. There should be 240v across them, 120 v to ground. Trace that out to verify the 2 different phases are going to the different sides of the elements.

 

[Hermit]

240VAC service is center tapped single phase service. It may appear to be two legs 180 degrees out of phase but it is still actually single phase. OP. You need 240VAC at the element.

 

[RDWHAHB]

240VAC service is center tapped single phase service. It may appear to be two legs 180 degrees out of phase but it is still actually single phase.

While I agree, it is all semantics. There are two legs of power 180 degrees out of phase from each.

 

[zazbnf]

I believe I have isolated the problem, but it doesn't make sense to me. I tested power coming into brewery control panel and across main poles where it should be 240v it was 75v. I worked backwards, and power entering the spa panel was also 75v. went back to the welder plug and it was 246v.

That leaves the problem to be inside my extension cord. I did notice that the recepticle end of the cord had some surface rust on the metal parts. Haven't used this cord for a few years it has been hanging on the wall in an unheated morton building. Could rusted/corroded connections cause the odd readings?

I haven't taken the ends apart yet, will try to look at it over the weekend when I have more time.

Thanks

 

[mux]

So you got 246v at receptacle. You place cord into receptacle and test opposite end to find 75v? Troubleshooting done- for now!

 

[zazbnf]

So you got 246v at receptacle. You place cord into receptacle and test opposite end to find 75v? Troubleshooting done- for now!

75v just seems to be an odd reading, was curious how that could even happen.

 

[RDWHAHB]

Sounds like a high impedance cord/connection for sure. Clean up or replace the connections.

There might be another issue if you had 120v (to gnd) on each side of the element but 0v across it.

 

[mux]

Check resistance between both of cable x to x, y to y. How long is the cable and what gauge? Sorry if you already posted that info.

 

[zazbnf]

Check resistance between both of cable x to x, y to y. How long is the cable and what gauge? Sorry if you already posted that info.

Cable is 125 feet long and is 3 wire 4 guage. I am using it to run power for the brewery from the morton building to my brewing space.

I will try to check the resistance later tonight after my son goes to sleep, currently on babysitting detail.

also may also try to check open up the plugs and check/clean the connections as RDWHAHB mentioned.

 

[mux]

Sounds like a high impedance cord/connection for sure. Clean up or replace the connections.

There might be another issue if you had 120v (to gnd) on each side of the element but 0v across it.

Oh yeah that's right, I forgot about the 120v to ground in the control panel. Hmm! It makes sense to have 120v to ground on "each" leg (same phase) but not if main in has 75v phase to phase, and 0 phase to phase at element.

 

[mux]

I think you need to pull it apart and start over.

 

[yjfun]

Corrosion causing resistance on one of the phase legs in the extension cord. Most likely internal where the wire goes into the cord cap.

My guess.

 

[zazbnf]

I found the problem with the cord, when I pulled it out earlier this week it was heavier than I wanted to carry, so I was dragging it out. Note to self never drag it by the plug. I had pulled both the main wires loose but not completely out. Fixed those and now I have 246 volts to the brewery control panel.

However I think mux is correct, Since I fixed that the auber pid in the control panel has gone a bit schizophrenic. I must have a wiring error inside the control panel as well. I will tear into it this weekend and trace everything out again and see where I screwed up.

Thanks to all of you for your help in getting me this far.

 

[Robeerto]

Whats up I am new to brewing but lots of years as an electronics professional and even today i run into things that don't make since (at first). I would suggest 2 things. #1 absolutely make sure all connections are tight and the power cord is correct end to end and measure with and ohm meter. When things don't work the first time I don't trust anyone, co-workers, or my self and start with the basics. #2 Don't turn your back on the system until you watch it run for a while. I retrofitted a 1963 Thermotron temperature chamber while at Raytheon Aircraft (Hawker Beechcraft) used to test aircraft batteries. I installed an Omega PID controller and solid state relays to control heating and cooling. When function testing the cooling worked great but during the heat cycle the element caught on fire like a sparkler and shorted out to ground before I could shut it down. It happened so fast it didn't throw the breaker and also ruined the SSR. After replacing the element and the SSR everything was good but SSRs are not cheep and a fire would make for very expensive homebrew. Good luck.

 

[RDWHAHB]

Had any time to look at this more?

 

[zazbnf]

Had any time to look at this more?

Yes, thought I could just trace the wires and find the problem instead of just starting over. Thought I had it, however it appears I missed the fact that there was a wiring error that when 2 switches were both turned on it fed both hot wires to the same terminal on the auber pid.

Ooops. Fried my pid.

I ordered a replacement and it just arrived today in fact. In the time since that happened, I pulled all of the wiring and started over. I also added a power connector for the pid so I can verify the voltage to the pid before I connect it to power.

Contacted auber and let them know what had happened, they kindly offered to look at the one I fried and let me know if it was worth repairing. Now just waiting to hear back from them to see if I will have a spare/expansion pid.

Plan to hook it up again this coming weekend without the pid power connected to test power lines. Then if all is good, hook up pid and finish testing this thing.

 

[mux]

Where in Illinois are you?

 

[zazbnf]

Where in Illinois are you?

Just outside of Macomb

 

[zazbnf]

Just got notified from Auber that they found the problem with my PID.

Seems it was an ID ten T error.

They are shipping it back to me and I will have an extra for expansion/backup

Just want to say Auber support is excellent!

 

[RDWHAHB]

Just want to say Auber support is excellent!

I wish my experience was the same.

 

[zazbnf]

Ok, I am back to being confused. Before hooking up my control panel with the new Auber controller last night, I tested my voltages again.

At the welder plug I have:
123.8 on both hot legs to ground
247.6 across both hot legs

However the voltage at the end of my extension cord are
127.x across 1 hot leg
119.x across the other
247.x across both hot legs

I have tried everything I can think of including replacing the plug and socket on the extension cord, and the voltages may change a point or two, but are nowhere close to being equal. What would cause the voltage of 1 leg to rise and the other to drop?

Should I just scrap the extension cord idea and run a permenant wire. If so what guage wire do I need for about a 40 foot run?

I wish my experience was the same.

Sorry to hear you had a bad experience with Auber.

 

[P-J]

Use an Ohm meter and set it to measure resistance using the highest scale possible. Unplug your cord (both ends) and then measure the resistance between each and every plug connection (measure it on one end of the cord). You should read infinity between every one.

My thinking is that if you have any leakage current between conductors, this test should show it.

Next step is to set the Ohm meter to its lowest scale and then measure resistance from one end to the same wire on the other end of the cord. You should show zero Ohms in every case.

My thinking here is if there is any faulty connection, this test should show it.

I hope this is of some help.

 

[zazbnf]

Use an Ohm meter and set it to measure resistance using the highest scale possible. Unplug your cord (both ends) and then measure the resistance between each and every plug connection (measure it on one end of the cord). You should read infinity between every one.

My thinking is that if you have any leakage current between conductors, this test should show it.

Next step is to set the Ohm meter to its lowest scale and then measure resistance from one end to the same wire on the other end of the cord. You should show zero Ohms in every case.

My thinking here is if there is any faulty connection, this test should show it.

I hope this is of some help.

Thanks P-J,

Tested as directed above:

When testing between conductors on the same end of the cord, I have "OL"(infinity) on my meter.

When testing the same lead at oposite ends of the wire, they are all zero ohms.

So that seems to be ok.

While I was doing the test, I had a thought and it may be way off base, but there is still currently about 85 feet of wire coiled on the wall of the shop as I only needed about 40 feet to get to my brew shed. Could my voltage issues be caused by inductance?

I plan to stretch out all of the cord to test this as soon as I get a free moment.

 

[P-J]

Now that is a distinct possibility that I had never thought of.

I think you could do your next test the way it is - but - with it under load.
Wirh a load I think the voltages might be balanced.

On the other hand, I would not really worry too much about it as you found the root cause of the original problem.

Thanks P-J,

Tested as directed above:

When testing between conductors on the same end of the cord, I have "OL"(infinity) on my meter.

When testing the same lead at oposite ends of the wire, they are all zero ohms.

So that seems to be ok.

While I was doing the test, I had a thought and it may be way off base, but there is still currently about 85 feet of wire coiled on the wall of the shop as I only needed about 40 feet to get to my brew shed. Could my voltage issues be caused by inductance?

I plan to stretch out all of the cord to test this as soon as I get a free moment.

 

[zazbnf]

Finally found the cause of my power problems, but not without breaking a few more eggs. The voltage fluctuation from inductance was negligible. So I fired up my control panel and everything seemed to work fine for about 30 seconds, then the spa panel kicked out. I assumed it was GFCI related, Figured I would reset and try again. About 20-30 seconds in it kicked out again. Went outside to look at the spa panel and as soon as I lifted the cover I smelled burning electrical smell and noticed smoke coming from my GFCI breaker. Obviously the fault was not GFCI related, so I started measuring power at the spa panel.

Now I was getting 176v on one leg and 68V on the second leg. After a WTF moment I started tracing everything back to the source. Inside the original welder plug that I had always assumed was ok and never opened and inspected because the voltage was a perfect 123v on both legs I found a broken ground connector that was making intermittent contact.

When I took the heavy ass extension cord out the socket flexed back enough to make a good enough connection to measure correctly. With that 4 gauge extension cord hanging from it and under load it flexed the socket forward far enough that it wasn’t making good ground.

I fixed the ground, changed out the existing GFCI breaker for a 60A Siemens breaker that I bought from a link someone had posted on here on HBT for $42.00 shipped and planned to keep as a spare(thanks to the poster of that link). Fired everything up again and I was able to heat my MLT up to mash temps this eve.

Going to set up a full length water/starsan run to test/clean my vessels and pumps out over the coming weekend, assuming all goes well I will have to start thinking about what my first batch will be

The great news after all this is my father in law mentioned he had a 50’ 8 gauge extension cord out at the farm I could have. Now I don’t have all the extra wire coiled up and the cable weighs next to nothing compared to that 4 gauge monster.

Thanks to all of you for your opinions and insight while I struggled through this. And very special thanks to P-J for the wiring schematic and controller advice(even if I couldn’t follow it right the first time ).

 

[P-J]

Thank you so very much for the update and your disclosure of the issue that you were up against. I stand in awe over the problem.

Congrats!

If I can be of any help in your adventure, please let me know.

P-J