Confused about single tier process

[djkukta]

My brewing buddies and I have decided to build a single tier HERMs system, but we need help in understanding a few things about the process. I've searched, but can't find satisfying answers to my questions. Probably because I'm over thinking it.

So, we want to build a system with of course an HLT, MT and BK with 2 pumps and a plate chiller (because we have the equipment). The HLT will include a heating element and a coil, BK will include a heating element. MLT will have no direct heat.

1. For strike water I'm thinking either fill the MLT to a measured volume then begin recirculating until it comes up to temp then dough in. Or heat to strike temp in the BK and then transfer to mash tun, begin recirculating while doughing in.

2. Sparging. We have always batch sparged using a cooler for the MLT and will probably continue to batch sparge. But how to do it. Do we heat the sparge water in the BK, transfer to another kettle, run first runnings to the now empty BK, dump the sparge water into the MLT? Or heat the water in the HLT to temp, run the first runnings to the BK then add sparge water from the HLT using one of the pumps.

I guess my concern with the later sparging option is losing that volume of water in the HLT and not having enough heated water to cover the HERMs coil. Am I over thinking this? How do most people do this?

Thanks.

 

[poptarts]

Or heat the water in the HLT to temp, run the first runnings to the BK then add sparge water from the HLT using one of the pumps.

I vote this, I also vote you just pump it over slowly and fly sparge.

 

[chickypad]

I vote this, I also vote you just pump it over slowly and fly sparge.

Agreed, might as well fly sparge. You must have some sort of arm returning the wort from the HERMS coil, right? But if you do decide to batch sparge why would you worry if the coil is still submerged, it wouldn't be in use after the mash.

As to your first question,heating strike water through the HERMS is not going to be very efficient and would likely take a long time to get from room temp to mash temp. I would heat in the BK and pump it over. You can start a little higher than strike temp to compensate for the heat loss in transfer and letting the MLT pre-heat.

 

[djkukta]

Agreed, might as well fly sparge. You must have some sort of arm returning the wort from the HERMS coil, right? But if you do decide to batch sparge why would you worry if the coil is still submerged, it wouldn't be in use after the mash.

As to your first question,heating strike water through the HERMS is not going to be very efficient and would likely take a long time to get from room temp to mash temp. I would heat in the BK and pump it over. You can start a little higher than strike temp to compensate for the heat loss in transfer and letting the MLT pre-heat.

Thanks. That makes sense if I'm fly sparging. I guess I'm thinking we would continue to batch sparge because I'm not interested in adding the extra time to the brew day. If we do batch sparge I thought that we would recirculate for 10 minutes or so, and that was why I was concerned about the coil being submerged. No need to recirculate the batch sparge? Just stir well and start running to the BK?

 

[dcbc]

You're going to want to recirculate a little bit (a few minutes) just to clear the wort. But there's no need to heat the coil for this process.

 

[wilconrad]

I heat my strike water in the HLT to a few degrees over strike temp, then transfer to the MLT, let cool to strike temp, and dough in. In the meantime, the HLT refills with sparge water and heats up to the first mash step temp. Once the HLT is at the mash step temp, I start recirculating through it. Once I get to mash out the HLT is up to 168, which is the sparge temp I use. So during the sparge, I once again transfer from the HLT to the MLT, while the runnings are headed from the MLT to the BK.

Edit: I fly sparge, but you could follow essentially the same flow for a batch sparge.

 

[chickypad]

You're going to want to recirculate a little bit (a few minutes) just to clear the wort. But there's no need to heat the coil for this process.

Right, you're not using the coil to do a mash temp correction. The coil is still hot and just recircing to clear for a few minutes your'e not going to loose enough temp to make a difference. You can also take the HERM coil out of the loop for sparging if you want, but that involes more connection changes with hot wort in the system.

 

[djkukta]

Thanks for the quick responses.

So, I think what I'll do is heat strike water in the BK then pump to MLT (not sure why I didn't think about pumping it). That just seems to be the smoother way to do it.

Batch sparge from the HLT and try not to worry about the temp dropping while recirculating for a few minutes.

Seems like there are so many different ways of doing everything when it comes to the brewing process (and many different opinions) that there really isn't any one correct answer for anything.

 

[Brewligan]

Fly sparge is the way I do it. Bring HLT up to temp, put in coil.(RIMS) Recirculate mash through coil for ?? Min. Switch connections, Neck down the pumps at the ball valves bring in water from the HLT. To top of grain bed, pull from bottom of grain bed into BK. By doing this at a slow pace the grain bed also acts as its own filter making a clearer finished beer if (RIMS) was taken advantage of. Also allows you to adjust for over or under shooting your gravities. Take a gravity reading 2-3 gallons before your pre boil target. My 2 cents, all depends on the abilities of your system.

 

[Yooper]

Is your HLT too small to hold the water for the mash and sparge?

I'm trying to picture in my mind why I'd heat the strike water in the BK, when I have an HLT handy. I have an element and a HEX coil in the HLT, and it holds temperatures so well that I can't imagine trying to use the BK to get the strike water temperature correct and then mash in, and then try to recirculate through the HLT. It seems awkward, unless I'm totally missing what you're saying (which is entirely possible!).

 

[wilconrad]

Agree with Yooper, why use the BK to heat water when you've got an HLT? What's the HLT for if it isn't for heating water?

 

[Bobby_M]

One very important question that remains unaddressed is whether you have the ability to fire both the HLT and BK elements at the same time. In other words, are you planning to run a 50a or a 30a control panel?

Also, what is your desired batch size and what size are all three vessels?

 

[johnnv]

Raise your HLT to strike temp and pump the needed volume into the MLT, mash in and raise the HLT with your HERMS coil to 169 F or so. You need the temp differential for the HERMS to work. Recirculate the water in the HLT to avoid temp barriers or thermo shields. Then you have sparge water ready to mash out also. Tip:I circulate the sparge water throught the herms coil at mash out, it cleans the coil while rinsing the grain.

 

[djkukta]

Is your HLT too small to hold the water for the mash and sparge?

I'm trying to picture in my mind why I'd heat the strike water in the BK, when I have an HLT handy. I have an element and a HEX coil in the HLT, and it holds temperatures so well that I can't imagine trying to use the BK to get the strike water temperature correct and then mash in, and then try to recirculate through the HLT. It seems awkward, unless I'm totally missing what you're saying (which is entirely possible!).

I guess it depends on the size of the batch. The kettles are 26 gallons. We are thinking about possibly doing 15 gallon batches. The HLT will also be used for recirculating during the mash through a coil to keep the mash temp consistent (the MLT is a stainless still kettle not a coole). My concern is that if we heat strike water in the HLT there won't be enough hot water left in it for recirculating the mash. I suppose we can add water to the HLT but then it won't be at the right temperature.

For smaller batches I wouldn't be as concerned.

I'm probably over thinking it. We haven't built the system yet and I want to understand the process so that we can build it properly. Since we haven't actually used such as system I'm just not sure of how long it will take to heat everything or how fast heat will be lost from the kettles.

 

[wilconrad]

My concern is that if we heat strike water in the HLT there won't be enough hot water left in it for recirculating the mash. I suppose we can add water to the HLT but then it won't be at the right temperature.

I wouldn't be too concerned here. I refill my HLT as soon as I transfer my strike water, and by the time I'm done doughing in it usually only takes a few minutes longer for the HLT to get up to temp, if that. Your system is larger than mine, so it may take a little longer to get the HLT up to temp, but the MLT won't lose temp fast enough for it to be an issue, in my opinion. By the time you need to start recirculating to keep the mash temp up, the HLT will have reached your target temp.

 

[djkukta]

I wouldn't be too concerned here. I refill my HLT as soon as I transfer my strike water, and by the time I'm done doughing in it usually only takes a few minutes longer for the HLT to get up to temp, if that. Your system is larger than mine, so it may take a little longer to get the HLT up to temp, but the MLT won't lose temp fast enough for it to be an issue, in my opinion. By the time you need to start recirculating to keep the mash temp up, the HLT will have reached your target temp.

That's good to know. So, if that isn't a concern then it would make more sense to use the HLT to heat the strike water.

 

[Bobby_M]

Let's say you have a 15 gallon HLT and you need 8 gallons of strike water. You fill the HLT to 14 gallons, set the controller to 175F. Move the strike water over to the MLT and immediately refill the HLT to whatever your sparge volume needs to be or whatever amount you need to cover your coil and set controller to 155 or whatever. Since the bulk of the water was already at 175, the new temp will already start around 140 and take no time to get to mash holding temps.

If your HLT is much smaller and it can only hold the strike volume and must be completely refilled for sparge, I would fill the HLT and heat it boiling. You can then mix in cold water in proportion to hit your strike temp and that would leave some boiling water in the HLT which will be topped off and equalize back around mash holding temps.

By the way, you don't need 2 pumps unless you fly sparge.

 

[johnnv]

Keep the Herms coil in the lower third of the HLT, you can also add water if needed and heat it back to temp.

 

[poptotwoboys]

"heat to strike temp in the BK and then transfer to mash tun, begin recirculating while doughing in."

I have a single tier system with a HERMS coil in my HLT, I typically heat my strike water in my BK while the larger volume of sparge water is heating in the HLT. The reason I heat strike water in the BK? It is a smaller volume of water and heats faster than the larger amount of sparge water. I dough in and can start the mash timer sooner, before I see any heat loss in the MT the HLT is hot enough to start recirculating thru the HERMS coil.

I batch sparge and recirculate to clarify the run off and empty the MT into the BK. Time is the main reason I do it this way is to speed up the brew day, it is probably less efficient than fly sparge but I can adjust my grain bill accordingly.