conditioning == conditioning?

[gregfreemyer]

For those of us that bottle the standard process is:

Ferment in bucket
Condition in carboy
Carb/Condition in bottles

I have a recipe which I found was great with 1 week - bucket, 2 weeks - carboy, 8 weeks - bottle

I left it in the fermenting bucket 2 weeks and the carboy 3 weeks this time. Does that imply it has already done 4 weeks of conditioning, so 4 more in the bottle will be the equivalent of my desired process?

Also I read that you can put the bottles at 75 degrees to carbonate faster. Does that also accelerate conditioning?

Thanks

 

[Queequeg]

I'll explain how I normally do it

For light and low/medium gravity beers

3 Weeks Primary
Bottle
week 1 try a bottle
week 2 try a bottle
week 3 drink entire batch

For high gravity and dark beers it goes the same but I try to bottle "condition" for longer normally

week 3 try 2 bottles
week4 try 4 bottles
week 5 drink entire batch

 

[Pfadfinder]

I tend to bottle after fermentation as well. Do you add any sugar or anything when you transfer to carboy? What difference does the conditioning in the carboy make?

 

[gregfreemyer]

I tend to bottle after fermentation as well. Do you add any sugar or anything when you transfer to carboy? What difference does the conditioning in the carboy make?

I'm a relative n00b (10 brews), but from what I've read:

Pros will pull the initial trub off the beer after a day or so, then pull the yeast cake after several days. Then let it condition until ready to keg/bottle.

Getting the beer off the trub and/or yeast cake apparently accelerates the conditioning/clarifying process.

Anyway, when I rack to the carboy I don't add anything, in my mind it is more about getting the beer off the yeast cake. Then I normally wait 2 weeks in the carboy and visually inspect the beer to make sure it has clarified. If so, I bottle.

Life was busy this month so I let things slip. Bottle day is Sunday.

 

[IvanTheTerribrew]

Conditioning in a carboy, as you'll see, is a touchy topic which a few people on here will generally criticize you about. I personally do both. Sometimes I secondary sometimes I just bottle/keg right from primary.

Secondary can be used it you want to add fruits or spices or oak to your beers. But it can also be used to clarify your beer both just by letting it stand of by adding gelatin. There are risks of doing secondary like oxidation and infection. It is another step you're adding where you risk exposing your beer to the open air and other equipment.

But, give it a try. Make your own decision if you like it or not. Maybe do one beer with secondary and one without and see what you think.

As for your original post: I like to do

2-3 weeks in primary
Sometimes 2 weeks in secondary
Bottle
2 weeks conditioning (I only consider it conditioning after it's out of the primary)
1 week in fridge
Drink

Hope this helps.


- ISM NRP

 

[Beernik]

Generally, I like to do 3 - 4 weeks in primary, 3 - 4 weeks in the bottle. I could have the beer bottled and carbed faster, but it would still taste too green.

 

[unionrdr]

My average gravity beers generally take 3 to 3 1/2 weeks to reach FG & clean up/settle out clear or slightly misty. Then 3-4 weeks in bottles at 70F or more to carb & condition. They'll still need time in the bottles to condition as well as carbonate. Then a week in the fridge to allow any chill haze to form & settle as well as getting co2 into solution.

 

[BigFloyd]

For those of us that bottle the standard process is:

Ferment in bucket
Condition in carboy
Carb/Condition in bottles

If you drop the second step, that would more accurately describe the standard process for the majority of those here who bottle.

Pros will pull the initial trub off the beer after a day or so, then pull the yeast cake after several days. Then let it condition until ready to keg/bottle.

Getting the beer off the trub and/or yeast cake apparently accelerates the conditioning/clarifying process.

Commercial brewers do that for two main reasons. The first is to keep their production moving along. The second is called yeast autolysis. In the large stainless conical fermenters they use, the yeast flocs out and settles to the bottom in the cone. There's a lot of weight (from the large volume of beer) pressing down on that yeast which can cause the cells to rupture leading to some yucky off-flavors. In our puny little 5-10 gallon fermenters, it's not an issue to leave the beer sit in the primary a few weeks until it's ready to bottle. If it's clarity that you're after, cold crashing the primary for 5-7 days in the mid 30's does an awesome job.

There's nothing at all about getting the beer off the yeast that accelerates the conditioning process. If taken off the yeast too soon, however, you can get a stuck fermentation and have no yeast cake present to rouse back into action to finish it.

 

[andy6026]

He's made 89 posts here and still thinks it's standard to rack to secondary?

 

[gregfreemyer]

There's nothing at all about getting the beer off the yeast that accelerates the conditioning process. If taken off the yeast too soon, however, you can get a stuck fermentation and have no yeast cake present to rouse back into action to finish it.

I read a blog post about conicals for home brewers. The writer didn't have one and was basically argueing they were a waste of money except for cosmetics.

A few of the home brew commenters said their beer cleared up significantly faster in a conical. I took this to be because they would have a reduced surface area on the top of the yeast cake and that they could pull the trub / yeast cake as the ferment progressed.

Any logic to any of that?

 

[gregfreemyer]

He's made 89 posts here and still thinks it's standard to rack to secondary?

I've seen lots of posts here about skipping the carboy for secondary., but:

- I took a class at the LHBS and they said to use one.
- The first kit I bought (Brewer's Best) said to use one.
- My good friend has been brewing for a decade or so and he uses one.
- I started with a fermentation bucket and a carboy, so I could brew more often if I used both vessels.
- oxygen seepage through the bucket during the first couple days isn't a big deal. After that, I don't know if oxygen permeation of the bucket is an issue. Some articles say it is.

Racking is not much extra work and I like being able to see the beer by just unwrapping the towel I keep around the carboy. (The primary ferment is pretty ugly, so I don't tend to look at it much.

I now have a couple bottling buckets I could use as a fermenter so the carboy is optional, but I still use it.

--
Nobody has really answered my initial question. Is conditioning in a bucket/carboy the exact same conditioning that happens in the bottle?

Thus if I want to condition a specific recipe 10 weeks because I've found it tastes best at that point:

Can I condition partially in primary, partially (or none) in secondary, and partially in the bottle. All that matters is it adds up to 10 weeks of conditioning?

And of course I need the beer in the bottle long enough to carb.

I do get the point of not racking the beer off the yeast cake until FG is achieved, but I assume that is before conditioning starts so my 10 weeks would start when the FG has been stable for 3 days.

 

[gregfreemyer]

Commercial brewers do that for two main reasons. The first is to keep their production moving along. The second is called yeast autolysis. In the large stainless conical fermenters they use, the yeast flocs out and settles to the bottom in the cone. There's a lot of weight (from the large volume of beer) pressing down on that yeast which can cause the cells to rupture leading to some yucky off-flavors.

Since you seem to know the pro way. I did a micro-brewery tour a few weeks ago. They said they typically keep the beer in the conical for 3 weeks, then rack to a brite tank, and then keg / bottle from there.

Is this roughly what they are doing timeline wise:

- day one - trub settles and yeast population multiplies
- end of day one - pull the trub off the bottom (why?)
- next several days primary fermentation takes place
- at end of primary, pull the yeast cake and wash it for re-use
- the rest of the 3 weeks is for clean-up / conditioning / clarifying
- move to brite tank to force carb for 24-48 hours
- package

Do they only do 2 two bottom pulls from the fermenter? If they do more, why?

Thanks

 

[Trox]

I've seen lots of posts here about skipping the carboy for secondary., but:

- I took a class at the LHBS and they said to use one.
- The first kit I bought (Brewer's Best) said to use one.
- My good friend has been brewing for a decade or so and he uses one.
- I started with a fermentation bucket and a carboy, so I could brew more often if I used both vessels.
- oxygen seepage through the bucket during the first couple days isn't a big deal. After that, I don't know if oxygen permeation of the bucket is an issue. Some articles say it is.

1. My LHBS has told me you have to have 2 burners to brew all grain.

2. Kits also say to bottle after 3-7 days (depending on the kit) never telling you to check for stable FG; also they never mention anything about starters.

3. Up until a few years ago (I believe) it was a common misconception that homebrewers had to be concerned with autolysis when with the scale we brew on it really isn't an issue, unless you plan on bulk aging your beer for months.

4. One of the few viable reasons on why to use a secondary; of course can always buy a couple more buckets and not worry about it.

5. Oxygen seepage isn't a factor unless you are leaving it in the bucket for months.

If racking to a secondary gives you peace of mind then continue doing so, but in the end it really isn't necessrary unless you need to free up your primary or plan on bulk aging.

 

[unionrdr]

Of course you can continue to use a secondary if you want to. But if it's an average gravity beer & you're not adding fruit,oaking,etc then you really don't have to...but you can. And it seems to me it's in the LHBS's best interests for you to use a secondary,so he can sell you one. I also must agree that most instructions are simplistic for a reason. Not to mention a bit behind the times in some cases. The information one finds on here can easily be considered cutting edge. We're always experimenting to push the envelope around here. So information between us & them can seem conflicting.

 

[govner1]

I've seen lots of posts here about skipping the carboy for secondary., but:



- I took a class at the LHBS and they said to use one.

- The first kit I bought (Brewer's Best) said to use one.

- My good friend has been brewing for a decade or so and he uses one.

- I started with a fermentation bucket and a carboy, so I could brew more often if I used both vessels.

- oxygen seepage through the bucket during the first couple days isn't a big deal. After that, I don't know if oxygen permeation of the bucket is an issue. Some articles say it is.



Racking is not much extra work and I like being able to see the beer by just unwrapping the towel I keep around the carboy. (The primary ferment is pretty ugly, so I don't tend to look at it much.



I now have a couple bottling buckets I could use as a fermenter so the carboy is optional, but I still use it.



--

Nobody has really answered my initial question. Is conditioning in a bucket/carboy the exact same conditioning that happens in the bottle?



Thus if I want to condition a specific recipe 10 weeks because I've found it tastes best at that point:



Can I condition partially in primary, partially (or none) in secondary, and partially in the bottle. All that matters is it adds up to 10 weeks of conditioning?



And of course I need the beer in the bottle long enough to carb.



I do get the point of not racking the beer off the yeast cake until FG is achieved, but I assume that is before conditioning starts so my 10 weeks would start when the FG has been stable for 3 days.

To answer your question re conditioning. Conditioning in a bottle or keg refers to adding a priming solution to your beer once fermentation is completed to deactivate the yeast that is still in solution. This yeast will the create CO2 that will carbonate your beer. In bottles the cap prevents the CO2 from escaping & once you chill it the gas dissolves into the beer. The same happens in a keg. You purge O2 from the keg w/ CO2 & seal it w/ CO2 so the carbonation doesn't escape. Again, chill for a couple of days to allow the CO2 to be absorbed (dissolved). Remember the solubility of a gas is inversely proportional to the temp.
Next, leaving the fermenting wort on the yeast until fermentation is complete is important because after active fermentation stops the yeast does cleanup of undesirable compounds in your beer that can cause off flavors. It also allows for more of the yeast to settle out of solution.
I do a secondary (brite tank) on my beers because I'm patient & think I get a clearer beer.



Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[WileECoyote]

For those of us that bottle the standard process is:

Ferment in bucket
Condition in carboy
Carb/Condition in bottles

I have a recipe which I found was great with 1 week - bucket, 2 weeks - carboy, 8 weeks - bottle

I left it in the fermenting bucket 2 weeks and the carboy 3 weeks this time. Does that imply it has already done 4 weeks of conditioning, so 4 more in the bottle will be the equivalent of my desired process?

Also I read that you can put the bottles at 75 degrees to carbonate faster. Does that also accelerate conditioning?

Thanks

Simple answer to both your questions is YES !

Cheers

 

[plankbr]

No they are not the same:

Co2 escapes in primary/secondary and it's trapped in the bottling state. Bottle conditioning is adding more sugar and kickstarting a mini-fermentation in a completely sealed environment.

 

[BigFloyd]

I read a blog post about conicals for home brewers. The writer didn't have one and was basically argueing they were a waste of money except for cosmetics.

A few of the home brew commenters said their beer cleared up significantly faster in a conical. I took this to be because they would have a reduced surface area on the top of the yeast cake and that they could pull the trub / yeast cake as the ferment progressed.

Any logic to any of that?

I've not heard that before and it doesn't really make much sense when you think about the factors involved. Who knows? It may be that they feel the need to justify to themselves all that $$ they spent on the fancy fermenter. I'm happy with my cheapo 6.5 gallon buckets.

I go to stable FG (normally 8-10 days since I follow pitch rates and aerate/oxygenate well) plus 3-4 days for cleanup, then crash a week at 35*F. My beers are clear enough that I most often don't even bother adding gelatin at kegging.