Compound leaching from Plastic/PVC equipment

[jessup]

Just a heads up for all you homebrewers who use any PVC or polyethylene:
Bis(2-Ethylhexyl)phthalate leaches out of anything made of PVC. I'm an environmental scientists and anywhere there is PVC around, there's this compound. Usually i complete water sampling at the ambient outside temperature, but being many times you are heating up the PVC/poly/plastic, i imagine even more might leach out of the plastics. I would imagine this includes water coolers used for all grain systems as well.

Here's some info on this compound, Bis(2-Ethylhexyl)phthalate.
http://www.epa.gov/ttn/atw/hlthef/eth-phth.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bis(2-ethylhexyl)_phthalate
"DEHP has a low vapor pressure, but the temperatures for processing PVC articles are often high, leading to release of elevated levels, raising concerns about health risks (see outgassing). It can be absorbed from food and water. Higher levels have been found in milk and cheese. It can also leach into a liquid that comes in contact with the plastic; it extracts faster into nonpolar solvents (eg. oils and fats in foods packed in PVC). Food and Drug Administration (FDA) therefore permits use of DEHP-containing packaging only for foods that primarily contain water. In soil, DEHP contamination moves very slowly because of its low solubility in water. Therefore, leaching from disposed plastics in landfills is generally slow. The US EPA limits for DEHP in drinking water is 6 ppb (now 3ppb). The U.S. agency OSHA's limit for occupational exposure is 5 mg/m3 of air."

"Bis(2-ethylhexyl) phthalate (DEHP) is used in the production of polyvinyl chloride (PVC). It exhibits low toxicity from acute (short-term) and chronic (long-term) exposures. Acute exposure to large oral doses of DEHP can cause gastrointestinal distress in humans. No information is available on the chronic, reproductive, developmental, or carcinogenic effects of DEHP in humans. Animal studies have reported increased lung weights and increased liver weights from chronic inhalation exposure to DEHP. Oral exposure has resulted in developmental and reproductive effects in rats and mice. A study by the National Toxicology Program (NTP) showed that DEHP administered orally increased the incidence of liver tumors in rats and mice. EPA has classified DEHP as a Group B2, probable human carcinogen."

"DEHP metabolites measured from the blood of pregnant women have been significantly associated with the decreased penis width (anything but that!!), shorter anogenital distance, and the incomplete descent of testes of their newborn sons, replicating effects identified in animals."

 

[jtlawlor]

Does this effect CPVC as well? And what is the inside of cooler generally made with?

 

[wildwest450]

Does this effect CPVC as well? And what is the inside of cooler generally made with?

I doubt, and who cares if it does? 75% of the country has cpvc plumming, were all doomed.

 

[Sawdustguy]

I doubt, and who cares if it does? 75% of the country has cpvc plumming, were all doomed.

Not me. When I built my house back in 93, I specified all copper for supply lines. My wife is a chemical engineer and she agreed that the plastics industry has known for many years about leechant problems with PVC products at elevated temperatures. The real problem is that the effects of these leeching chemicals do not manifest themselves overnight so the plastics Industry doesn't advertise the hazards. If I am to die from poisoning, I want it to be alcohol poisioning so I tend not to use PVC products if I can avoid them. It's an individual choice and I am not going to criticize anyone for their choices.

 

[david_42]

Unfortunately, much of the water distribution system in the US is PVC, so worrying about what happens in your house doesn't do much. My house has copper and DEX piping, but there's 15 miles of PVC between the tank and my house.

 

[ChillyP]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo......... So are we going to die? I actually like the 2-Ethylhexy, it really brings out the Hops aroma.

 

[lamarguy]

I love these Chicken Little threads...Folks, the sky IS falling!

 

[wantonsoup]

Must say, I think people will look back on this stuff and wonder why people were so passive and unconcerned. Talk to your grandpa (or even parent) about lead toys (I don't mean lead paint, I mean toys MADE of lead) and that when the alarm bells started ringing, how everyone thought they were alarmist nutjobs. If studies are showing that plastics are causing harm, why aren't more people interested in reducing/removing the threat to themselves and their families? It's like everyone has the mindset that, "Eh, everyone's doing it, why rock the boat?" Meanwhile cancer rates and especially in the sexual organs, are skyrocketing, and it's very closely linked to the plastics we are in constant contact with. Personally we try to avoid all the 'bad plastics' as much as possible. And in this vein, I'm researching the available phthalate-free pvc tubing and silicone tubing for homebrewing. <rant mode off>

 

[-TH-]

Must say, I think people will look back on this stuff and wonder why people were so passive and unconcerned. Talk to your grandpa (or even parent) about lead toys (I don't mean lead paint, I mean toys MADE of lead) and that when the alarm bells started ringing, how everyone thought they were alarmist nutjobs. If studies are showing that plastics are causing harm, why aren't more people interested in reducing/removing the threat to themselves and their families? It's like everyone has the mindset that, "Eh, everyone's doing it, why rock the boat?" Meanwhile cancer rates and especially in the sexual organs, are skyrocketing, and it's very closely linked to the plastics we are in constant contact with. Personally we try to avoid all the 'bad plastics' as much as possible. And in this vein, I'm researching the available phthalate-free pvc tubing and silicone tubing for homebrewing. <rant mode off>

I'm not saying I don't believe you, but when I see the words: "...studies are showing..." without reference to the actual studies, that's when my alarm bells start going off.

In other words, a few references would go a long way here.

 

[baldilocks]

Must say, I think people will look back on this stuff and wonder why people were so passive and unconcerned. Talk to your grandpa (or even parent) about lead toys (I don't mean lead paint, I mean toys MADE of lead) and that when the alarm bells started ringing, how everyone thought they were alarmist nutjobs. If studies are showing that plastics are causing harm, why aren't more people interested in reducing/removing the threat to themselves and their families? It's like everyone has the mindset that, "Eh, everyone's doing it, why rock the boat?" Meanwhile cancer rates and especially in the sexual organs, are skyrocketing, and it's very closely linked to the plastics we are in constant contact with. Personally we try to avoid all the 'bad plastics' as much as possible. And in this vein, I'm researching the available phthalate-free pvc tubing and silicone tubing for homebrewing. <rant mode off>

There have also been many claims in history that have been debunked. Go ahead and pick and choose the ones you feel are important to follow. The OP's statement at the beginning doesn't specify any details pertaining to levels of toxicity in the testing. This reminds me of the previous claims Sween-n-low causing cancer in lab mice and should be eliminated from store shelves and restaurants. Yeah........

Well, until I see something in writing stating the amount of said chemical that caused these negative effects and also the amount of said chemical that can be "leached" into my beer, I will continue to use tried and true methods from past brewer experiences.

 

[jsv1204]

If I am to die from poisoning, I want it to be alcohol poisoning

Haha! +1

 

[wantonsoup]

I'm not saying I don't believe you, but when I see the words: "...studies are showing..." without reference to the actual studies, that's when my alarm bells start going off.

In other words, a few references would go a long way here.

Fair enough, google "PVC leaching" or "phthalate safety". Europe has banned many phthalate plasticizers due to the overwhelming consensus of dangers.

Here's a good start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pvc#Health_and_safety
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phthalate#Health_effects

(I know, Wikipedia is not a scientific journal. But they link to them nicely for you to do your own in-depth reading)

There have also been many claims in history that have been debunked.

Science doesn't really work that way - you go with what is generally accepted by testing now. Assuming that scientific conclusions will someday be changed by new exploration and discovery in the future is fair, so long as you accept the current data up to and until that point. For instance - you don't swig mercury and say, "heck, one day they'll say it cures cancer!" Nor do you shun airplanes because the science of fluid dynamics and aeronautics may someday refute the way a wing creates thrust. You accept science as it stands, today. Knowing things may change in the future with more research and study.

 

[Hopper5000]

Yeah I have an igloo cooler mashtun, i feel weird about using it because of the plastic aspect but do anyways cuz it works so well!

 

[Revvy]

Yeah I have an igloo cooler mashtun, i feel weird about using it because of the plastic aspect but do anyways cuz it works so well!

A former member worked in plastic formulation as an engineer, and posted a lot of good info showing it is safe to use. I've reposted the info a ton of times on here whenever some nervous nelly starts threads like this one.

Here's some of the info.

 

[wantonsoup]

I think those are HDPE - that's very stable and doesn't leach dangerous chemicals. I'm talking about PVC (vinyl tubing and the like)

 

[Hopper5000]

thanks revvy and wanton!

 

[wantonsoup]

I'm totally fine with HDPE and PP (high-density polyethylene and polypropylene). They're numbers 2 and 5 respectively on the universal number embossed into most plastic items these days. We've gotten rid of any other numbers we can find in our house, especially in anything our baby handles.

 

[engineerrock]

This is hype about nothing! Rigid PVC and CPVC contain no plasticizers (including DEHP) AT ALL. Plasticizers make PVC soft. There is a chance that soft PVC tubing has DEHP, so if you are worried, pick something different, but if you don't know what you are talking about don't spread false information. I am an engineer at a pipe plant and I know the formulas and what NSF will permit. Rigid pipe is thoroughly tested on a continuous basis to make sure it is safe for drinking water.

 

[wantonsoup]

This is hype about nothing! Rigid PVC and CPVC contain no plasticizers (including DEHP) AT ALL. Plasticizers make PVC soft. There is a chance that soft PVC tubing has DEHP, so if you are worried, pick something different, but if you don't know what you are talking about don't spread false information. I am an engineer at a pipe plant and I know the formulas and what NSF will permit. Rigid pipe is thoroughly tested on a continuous basis to make sure it is safe for drinking water.

Allow me to quote some pages I've just found to support my concerns.

http://www.calpipes.org/ProtectingCalifornians_CPVC.asp
Leaching studies commissioned by the State of California and conducted by UC Berkeley found that CPVC plumbing pipe systems may leach potentially toxic chemicals such as chloroform, tetrahydrofuran, methyl ethyl ketone, acetone and organotins into drinking water. These chemicals may cause cancer in humans or other serious health impacts. When leached from CPVC plumbing systems, the public may be exposed to these chemicals through consumption of drinking water, inhalation and skin exposure during bathing.

http://water.epa.gov/drink/contaminants/basicinformation/vinyl-chloride.cfm
Some people who drink water containing vinyl chloride well in excess of the maximum contaminant level (MCL) for many years may have an increased risk of cancer.

That took me 30 seconds and with more time I could quote studies that show increased cancer risks from all types of vinyl in contact with food and drink. Rigid, chlorinated, flexible (with phthalates), etc. All of it will eventually be banned when it's found to be definitely cancerous. You're free to make your own choice. I make mine.

 

[stamandster]

Necropost!!!!!

 

[kh54s10]

Allow me to quote some pages I've just found to support my concerns.





That took me 30 seconds and with more time I could quote studies that show increased cancer risks from all types of vinyl in contact with food and drink. Rigid, chlorinated, flexible (with phthalates), etc. All of it will eventually be banned when it's found to be definitely cancerous. You're free to make your own choice. I make mine.

You quoted a California study..... Everything in California causes cancer.

 

[wantonsoup]

Here's a study the EPA commissioned thirty years ago. This is not new information.
link

 

[kh54s10]

Here's a study the EPA commissioned thirty years ago. This is not new information.
http://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyNET.exe/...ge&MaximumPages=1&ZyEntry=1&SeekPage=x&ZyPURL

30 year old information and technology = worth close to 0, IMO.

 

[wantonsoup]

30 year old information and technology = worth close to 0, IMO.

Totally! Like how 500 years ago Copernicus used super old information and technology to prove the earth revolves around the sun. What a crock! Clearly old studies should be discarded and ignored!

But, no matter, the study I mentioned earlier was about seven years ago from a prestigious university.

 

[Hopper5000]

We constantly are consuming and absorbing plastic compounds. In the USA plastic is used for like everything. Do the coolers leech? Seems like they probably leech at least a bit of something. Why doesn't someone on here fund a study then?

 

[wantonsoup]

We constantly are consuming and absorbing plastic compounds. In the USA plastic is used for like everything. Do the coolers leech? Seems like they probably leech at least a bit of something. Why doesn't someone on here fund a study then?

There have been studies done on chemical leaching, which is how we know that PVC and vinyl and PET leaches, while LDPE, HDPE and polypropylene don't.

 

[engineerrock]

Page 1 is from the California plumber's union. The unions hate anything that is easy to install and decreases labor. There's no references anywhere for the information they cite. Wonder why?

Page 2 is from the EPA and looks to be good information. There's no mention at all, however, of PVC pipe. That's because PVC pipe hasn't contained measurable free vinyl chloride since the 1970's. I get the certificates of compliance and sign the checks for the testing to confirm that it doesn't.

The company I work for makes most kinds of pipe for potable water including PE, PP, PEX, PVC, CPVC, ductile iron, and multilayer, and brass fittings. If you have a personal favorite please feel free to choose. But don't pass off your personal favorite as science.

Cheers!

Allow me to quote some pages I've just found to support my concerns.





That took me 30 seconds and with more time I could quote studies that show increased cancer risks from all types of vinyl in contact with food and drink. Rigid, chlorinated, flexible (with phthalates), etc. All of it will eventually be banned when it's found to be definitely cancerous. You're free to make your own choice. I make mine.

 

[wantonsoup]

The company I work for makes most kinds of pipe for potable water including ...

I don't expect you to accept that your company might make something that leaches toxic chemicals. I had a friend that works for the fracking industry who wouldn't accept anything other than his industry was the perfect altruistic bunch of awesomesauce that did no wrong. But I have no ulterior motive or any burden of cognitive dissonance, no allegiances to anything but looking for the facts. I have no "favorites" other than the studies I've read that indicate which materials leach, and which don't. I'm open minded to anything except bias. And when I find lots of studies from around the world showing that PVC and CPVC leach at as low as 95 degrees F, I want to avoid it. Vinyl is a carcinogen. It likely exists in such widespread use only because your industry has trade groups and lobbying arms that keep it in the building codes throughout the nation.

 

[jessup]

wantonsoup - thanks for keeping this discussion going. while most folks just shrug it off (as we've seen in this thread) i'm sure in the long term more folks will begin to understand. i have personally seen this compound, bis(2-ethylhexyl)phthalate a/k/a DEHP, show up in my laboratory analyses more times than not when using polyethylene, vinyl, PVC, etc. no study but through actual personal experience. sure we're talking parts per billion, but it IS still leaching at low (50's-60's) temperatures. the only thing that doesn't leach while i'm doing environmental sampling is Teflon. i sure hope high temp Silicon is just as good as that's what i'm using in my homebrewery. my homebrewery is 100% SS with some copper tidbits. no plastics anywhere other than my kegerator draft system.

 

[wantonsoup]

my homebrewery is 100% SS with some copper tidbits. no plastics anywhere other than my kegerator draft system.

I'm close to that - I use all SS metal, and for the tubing I got plasticizer/phthalate-free tubing, or else I use platinum-cured silicone.

The way I figure it - better safe than sorry. To each his own though.