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I'm just curious. How many ounces per beer a judge have to drink? 12-14 beers in 2 hours, which seems to be just warming up for the day ahead, appears to be a lot! Maybe there is no correlation, but I wonder how much the alcohol can affect a conscious and fair judgment in the last ones tasted. Homebrews tend to have high ABVs as you all know.

Good question. The answer is, less as you get better. Novice judges often need 3-4 ounces. Experienced judges are closer to 1-2.

Meillgaard et al say that you get a more powerful aroma on the first whiff and more powerful flavor on the first taste so the ideal would be to be able to smell once and fill out aroma and then taste once and fill out flavor and mouthfeel. Very few people are there. IME, over 35 or so rounds of judging I have gone from an average of 3 ounces to 1 ounce. Judging rarely gets me inebriated though a long flight of strong ales or belgian strong ales or meads starts to push it.
 
Good thread here. My thanks to the experienced judges who keep posting.

I have, as most people have, had some amazingly stupid feedback on beers. I tend to see these from inexperienced people, and not from experienced people. I have two sets of feedback I keep to laugh at from time to time.

However, as has been mentioned here, there are so many factors involved in judging beer that you just have to laugh at the bad feedback and learn from the good ones.

My epiphany was when I drank two different commercial IPA's back-to-back. I love both beers, but when IPA "a" was drank immediately after IPA "b", "a" tasted terribly skunky and oxidized. I have repeated this experiment many times and that specific order of beers ruins "a".
 
If you really hate beer judges, do what I do: make the most DISGUSTING batch of beer you can possibly make, and enter it into every single category!


Hahahahah!!!!!11
Hilarious! I literally almost cried from laughing when i just read that. I'm still sitting here thinking about stuff I could put in a beer to accomplish this : ink, seawater, a shot of vinegar, raw sweet wort (without hops or yeast) . . .

I would never do this, but it reads like a great Monty Python skit.
 
Some of the comments I get from judges are just strange. One judge commented on my doppelbock, and I'm quoting, "Excellent beer, no flaws, perfect for the style. 5/10."

I still scratch my head on that one.
 
So does one have to enter competitions to be a good homebrewer? I'm generally against them because I don't see much of a point.

Based on my experiences, I haven't gotten feedback that is better than handing my beers to certain friends who I know will give me an honest critique and know beer styles. I'm not saying this because I'm pissed at a few beers that got ripped, but at the contradictions. Two of my past entries were pretty well panned, but those sheets were the best critiques, and the ones I appreciate the most. I'm not looking for medals or awards, so that part means nothing, and the prizes rarely amount to anything anyway. So really, what's the point? I entered the HBT one because I am on this forum so much and some of the prizes seem worth a shot, but I seriously think this is the only contest I'll ever enter again (yearly if Yoop keeps organizing it).

My point was that homebrewing has a learning curve and so does judging. I also feel that my experience judging beers has helped me become a better brewer.

It takes a long long time to associate what you taste with the written word, but once you can do that it opens doors. The next step is associating those flavors with ingredients or processes or problems.

By no means am I there yet.
 
I also feel that my experience judging beers has helped me become a better brewer.

Great point. We've started doing a loosely organized tasting at our homebrew club meetings and I feel it has improved my palate and brewing immensely. Some feelings were hurt as everyone got used to the honest critiques, but now all the members are on board.
 
I just got back the score sheets from my first competition. I entered a dry stout (13A), that in my opinion, and others who tasted it, was my best beer over a couple years of brewing. I had no interest in winning; only unbiased feedback. Basically, I wanted to know if someone could detect off flavors that my friends/family wouldn't mention, and I am too cellar blind to taste.

For point of reference, the beer was brewed in March, using a very traditional recipe (70% UK Pale Malt, 20% US Flaked Barley, 10% UK Roasted Barley) cleanly hopped at the beginning of boil to 40 IBU's (Rager), and fermented dry (2.5 dP/ 1.010) with WLP007 - Dry English. I used a fresh pitch of yeast grown on my stir plate over 30 hours, added 60 sec of pure 02 prior to pitching, and used a single stage fermentation in my ferm chamber, pitching at 62, and moving it to 66 over 48 hours for the remainder of fermentation and conditioning. Three weeks later, I bottled conditioned this 4% ABV beer to 1.75 vols of CO2.

The comments left me with mixed feelings.

First the good. I received two sheets, one from a certified judge, one from a non-BJCP judge. Both sheets were very thorough, so that is a huge plus, and made me happy to see. Also worth noting is that the certified judge did not check any boxes for off flavors, and did not really note any flavor issues in the comment fields (some mention of "leather" and "peat" under flavor, but I think you can get those from a highly kilned UK Roasted Barley). The non-bjcp judge checked the astrigency box (which is actually acceptable for the style - but no big deal).

Now the bad. I read the comments, and they match the style descriptors; practically word for word. I used a proven, classic recipe, the beer was judged to be without flaws, the desciptors of the judges match the guideline exactly, but the scores do not reflect any of those things.

For example (and this is from memory)

From guidelines

"Aroma: Coffee-like roasted barley and roasted malt aromas are prominent; may have slight chocolate, cocoa and/or grainy secondary notes. Esters medium-low to none. No diacetyl. Hop aroma low to none."

From Scoresheet
"Aroma: Coffee and bitter-sweet chocolate. Esters - none. Hop aroma - low to none"

Score = 7/12

So - how do I get to 12/12? I agree, dry stout is not as interesting as the aroma of a RIS, but style is style - right? That trend carried out through every section of the sheet. Remarks match the guideline, scores do not.

There were other little quirks that bothered me a bit - such as the non-BJCP judge telling me I could achieve more body with the addition of oats (wouldn't that be an oatmeal stout?), but the guy was clearly trying to make a helpful suggestion, so I am letting that go. Maybe with more experience he would have known "The perception of body can be affected by the overall gravity with smaller beers being lighter in body."

I know I said that I didn't enter to win (actually I couldn't because I was not a local resident/club member) but it would have been nice if the scores matched the comments. On the other hand, the feedback did confirm that the beer is without brewing flaws, and according to the comments (while ignoring the scores) is brewed to style..... but how can I be happy about that with a 29/50?

Thoughts?

Joe
 
jfowler,
there is a difference between a beer that meets the guideline and has no glaring flaws vs one that is the most excellent example of that style. A lot of my beers are like this, they are within the guidelines and often have no big flaws...but they're just not yummy enough to garner the really good scores.
 
I understand your thoughts about "yummy" factor, and that is a good point.

However, how would you make this beer "yummier"? By style, it is a three grain, one hop, clean, dry, low CO2, session beer.

You could doctor it up with crystal, add some chocolate, age it atop ground coffee, but that is no longer a dry stout.

I really thought the point of the BJCP was picking the beer that best represents the intention of the style, not the "yummiest" beer entered in that particular catagory/contest. If the trend is to favor the latter, the biggest beer in the flight will win everytime, and you enter a slippery slope of style creep.

Someone may favor the complexity of a RIS to the sessionable design of a Dry Stout, but you can't compare the two on flavor. Personally, I do not find any of the beers entered in 1A (light Am Lager) to be yummy....so how do you judge it, if not solely on style accuracy?
 
Yet another example -

I entered an American Pale Ale into 2 different competitions that were held on the same day. The bottles were bottled from the keg at the same time, shipped the same day, and as I mentioned were judged on the same day. In the comp #1 I received a 27.5, and both judges (1 BJCP, 1 not) thought it was too malty and suggested I increase bitterness, hop flavor, and hop aroma. In the comp #2, the same beer received a 36.33 which was good for 2nd place. The judges (all 3 BJCP) commented that I was pushing the limit of hop flavor and aroma for this style, and suggested I cut back a bit on the hops.

The actual beer had an O.G. was 1.060, IBU of 49.5, and was dry-hopped with 2oz of centennial. Grist was mostly pale malt except for a small amount of crystal 10 & 20. It was technically an IPA but I thought it would do better as a "pushing-the-limit" APA than a weak IPA.

Comp #2 was right on. Comp #1's score sheets read like they are for someone else's beer. My only guess is flight order had a lot to do with it...or maybe they were in fact judging someone else's beer :D
 
..... but how can I be happy about that with a 29/50? Thoughts?
I think we hear brewers throwing around scores in the 40's and get disappointed. The reality is that a 29/50 puts you at the top end of “Good” bordering on “Very Good”. That's certainly nothing to be unhappy about!
 
I understand your thoughts about "yummy" factor, and that is a good point.

However, how would you make this beer "yummier"? By style, it is a three grain, one hop, clean, dry, low CO2, session beer.

You could doctor it up with crystal, add some chocolate, age it atop ground coffee, but that is no longer a dry stout.

I really thought the point of the BJCP was picking the beer that best represents the intention of the style, not the "yummiest" beer entered in that particular catagory/contest. If the trend is to favor the latter, the biggest beer in the flight will win everytime, and you enter a slippery slope of style creep.

Someone may favor the complexity of a RIS to the sessionable design of a Dry Stout, but you can't compare the two on flavor. Personally, I do not find any of the beers entered in 1A (light Am Lager) to be yummy....so how do you judge it, if not solely on style accuracy?
What I mean is, often there will be several beers in a flight that all are within guidelines and have no glaring flaws. But they won't be equivalent in terms of how good overall they are.

You've probably seen it in commercial beers you've had. Pick several commercial, say Pale Ales, that all are within the guidelines and have no real flaws. Surely you'll like certain examples over others and would have scored them differently if you were judging them.
 
You make a great point, and that lends well to the design of the GABF.

As I understand it, GABF awards a gold medal to what is determined to be the "best" (fill in the blank) beer in America. It is extremely subjective, and lends more to what the public/judges agree would be the most marketable and well received beer in that catagory. Style accuracy has very little to do with the judging or results. It is a taste/flavor competition.

I was under the impression the AHA/BJCP homebrew comps are style competitions.

Personally, I see a big difference between brewing to style and brewing to taste. If it is a taste comp fine; but couldn't you then throw out all that talk about guidelines and classic examples?

Isolate this one comment:

From guidelines

"Aroma: Coffee-like roasted barley and roasted malt aromas are prominent; may have slight chocolate, cocoa and/or grainy secondary notes. Esters medium-low to none. No diacetyl. Hop aroma low to none."

From Scoresheet
"Aroma: Coffee and bitter-sweet chocolate. Esters - none. Hop aroma - low to none"

Score = 7/12

Can someone explain this?

If you ask me, it kind of supports the argument that sending beers for the sake of feedback (for the goal of improved style accuracy) is borderline useless.

If you want to enter comps for medals, but to do that, have to brew everything not only well, but also "big", then more power to you, but that is not how the comps, or the BJCP as a whole, is being billed.
 
For a quick adder...

I don't want this to sound like sour grapes - it's not. I just genuinely do not understand how the comments correlate to the score.

Joe
 
For a quick adder...

I don't want this to sound like sour grapes - it's not. I just genuinely do not understand how the comments correlate to the score.

Joe

I am pretty sure that a sour grape flavor is outside of the style guidelines for a dry stout...

Oh, yeah. :p
 
I am pretty sure that a sour grape flavor is outside of the style guidelines for a dry stout...

Don't laugh...sour grapes could be what Guinness uses to achieve their trademark "twang".

There is a NJ comp opening next month. I'll give it another shot, but this time it will be a Cal Common. Feedback aside, I like the idea of throwing a couple $ toward supporting homebrew in my own state.
 
Isolate this one comment:

From guidelines

"Aroma: Coffee-like roasted barley and roasted malt aromas are prominent; may have slight chocolate, cocoa and/or grainy secondary notes. Esters medium-low to none. No diacetyl. Hop aroma low to none."

From Scoresheet
"Aroma: Coffee and bitter-sweet chocolate. Esters - none. Hop aroma - low to none"

Score = 7/12

Can someone explain this?

I'll bite...

So you nailed the hop aroma per the style, but were slightly different on the rest. You had bitter-sweet chocolate (style says may have light chocolate. light and bitter-sweet are different). You had coffee (style says coffee-like roasted barley). You had no esters (style says medium low to none).

So, 7/12 (above "average") seems appropriate to me...

Grade inflation at our schools has gotten out of control; I'm glad it's not the case at BJCP comps...

Nothing wrong with a 29 - as pointed out before that puts it in the high range for "good"
 
Can someone explain this?
The only thing that I think you're missing is that it is not just the presence of the character that is being judged. It's also the quality and how it’s implemented. Taking one of the components that they are looking for in this beer, chocolate. There’s Hershey’s and there’s MarieBelle's. They’re both chocolate, but one is better than the other. You could have every flavor and aroma from a list, but if they are not the right quality and don’t meld properly with the others you shouldn’t score as well as if they did. At this point, judging becomes subjective and the experience of the judge comes into play.
 
For what it's worth jfowler, the highest scoring beer doesn't always win the category or competition. From what I understand, they score the beers based on style and pick their faves, then for the mini best of show they just choose the one that tastes the best to them. You can rest assured that the best tasting beer wins. So the score isn't always indicative of how good it was, just how it fit the style.
 
SpanishCastleAle said:
What I mean is, often there will be several beers in a flight that all are within guidelines and have no glaring flaws. But they won't be equivalent in terms of how good overall they are.

You've probably seen it in commercial beers you've had. Pick several commercial, say Pale Ales, that all are within the guidelines and have no real flaws. Surely you'll like certain examples over others and would have scored them differently if you were judging them.

This. There's "perfectly to style" and then there's "perfectly to style AND tastes amazing". With the increasing seriousness with which homebrewers take this "hobby", MANY beers these days have no problem fitting the style. Just look at your own post - you provided evidence of your beer's "perfection" in the form of the rigorousness of your process, and it was actually a good idea, since most of us here are able to recognize that your process is airtight, and that there's really nothing that can be improved upon in order to make the beer even more to style. But the fact that we can all agree it's airtight demonstrates that the process of making a dry stout to style is well-known, and anybody with the necessary equipment can probably brew a TECHNICALLY flawless stout. But competitions are useless if everybody's being handed perfect scores, so it only makes sense for the scoring to differentiate beers in the only way that still remains possible.

In fact, 29 is a pretty decent score, ESPECIALLY for a more ho-hum style such as dry stout. I've seen similarly unexciting styles - such as cream ale, which is not exactly lacking entrants most of the time - win first in the category, with mid-high 20's. Don't think of it as a percentage grade like you may have received in school... there's absolutely no correlation. Dry stouts simply don't see the same scores that the top RIS'es will, but that's fine, because you're not really competing against RIS'es. And if you ARE in a competition that lumps everything together in their broader categories, a dry stout probably just isn't the best idea if you're in it to win it - although they typically only group the subcategories together like that in smaller comps where there just aren't enough entrants to have 80+ categories, so your chances aren't TOO bad.

If your goal is to brew to style, then the comments are all you need, and they sound pretty validating to me. You don't need the score to ALSO tell you that, and as a somewhat more subjective metric, it really doesn't tell you that as well anyways.

Your process is clearly nailed down, so if the comments are not enough for you and you really want to COMPETE, then it's probably time to start focusing on the art, in addition to the science. If even only half the beers manage to stay within the guidelines (which is no longer even close to the case these days), then you're still only in the middle of the pack, unless you brew something that tastes better than all the other, equally perfect beers in your category.

Many competition brewers nowadays feel that it's almost necessary to brew MOST styles a big as the guidelines will allow, because unless you manage to be first in the flight, you can all but guarantee that the *******(es) before you are already assaulting the judges' palates. So you are right about the bias towards bigger beers, but I don't think it lends itself to style creep. Competition beers are brewed to previously defined guidelines - not the other way around. And if you look at the BJCP guidelines, over the revisions that have taken place, they have actually mostly been tightened up, often with a much more narrow range of OG's, and, from what I've seen, nearly always LOWERING the upper limit from earlier guidelines, with the exceptions mostly being with beers that are known for being at the extremes of OG, both high and low.

And just a note about the comment you made about astringency being acceptable in a dry stout, yes, that's true. It doesn't automatically make the assessment invalid though. Sometimes the astringency is of an incorrect character, as would be the case with hop astringency. In a dry stout though, that's extremely unlikely. What's far more possible is that a judge finds the astringency to be excessive, even for the style. Very few characteristics permitted in a given style are considered acceptable without any limits - at some point, astringency DOES become a fault even in a dry stout. Of course, the judge could have also been very wrong (they are, after all, only human), but the observation still shouldn't be dismissed so offhandedly simply because the guidelines allow for the characteristic.
 
Very well said emjay. I appreciate you taking the time to help clear up my question.
 
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