Combating Extract Sweetness

[Grinder12000]

Maybe (probably) this gas been talked about before but we all know the biggest difference between AG and Extract is that AG can be brewed dryer and Extract will always be a little sweeter.

So why not "mash" you extract brews a little cooler knowing that a certain amount of sweetness will always come from the extract.


For instance

I see recipes for Pale ale - All Grain Mast at 152 and extract with grains mash at 152.

Why not mash the extract with grains at say, 150 instead of 152 knowing that some of the sweetness will come from the extract instead of the grains.

 

[homebrewer_99]

All malt is sweet. It's up to you, the brewer, to counter the sweetness with the bitterness from the hops.

If your brew is still too sweet then you underhopped.

 

[ArcaneXor]

You don't mash if you only have extract and steeping grains - you just make grain tea. The temperature of the water you steep the grains in doesn't really affect attenuation (unlike mashing). Also, the contribution of sugars by steeping grains relative to the extract is usually minuscule.

My extract only brews attenuate just fine - never had a problem with them. You just need to treat your yeast well and adjust your fermentation temperature profile to delay yeast flocculation (i.e. let it heat up as things begin to settle down).

 

[carbon111]

Extract is sweeter? Extract is literally just dehydrated wort. It may be fractionally less fermentable, but not by much. i.e. not enough to have to compensate at all.

Low attenuating yeast and under hopping are the main reasons a beer would be too sweet.

 

[Grinder12000]

hmmm - I was just repeating what many All Grain brewers say - Extract will always be sweeter then AG.

If this is not true - disregard!

I've always gotten down to 1.012 range with my brews - can I get lower?? Is it something I'm not doing? I make starters and so forth but I've always found that commercial brews seem dryer then my mini mash's.


Ferm temps are mid 60's in winter and 70 in summer.

You don't mash if you only have extract and steeping grains

Yea - I know that - I don't use just steeping grains. I use 2-row and all the rest - normally 5-6 lbs of various grain.

 

[Beerrific]

You could 'mash' all your extract with the grain, but of course some of the grain needs to have excess enzymes. The enzymes in the 2-row will possibly help make the extract more fermentable. But, it will be very sugary and you might lose some of the extract sugar depending on how efficient your partial mash sparge is.

I would imagine that most US made extract is mashed around 152-154F. If you are getting FG that would lead you to believe that it is mashed higher, then I would look in other directions: nutrient levels, pitching rate, oxygenation, etc.

 

[Revvy]

I've never noticed nor have I heard from any all grain brewers that the extract I brew with is any more or less sweeter than when I am making my own wort from grain...That's basically what we do when we brew AG, we are making our own "extract."

Maybe I missed that secret AG brewer's meeting.

If someone is saying that their extract beers were sweeter than the AG beers they brew today, they more than likely learned a bit more about recipe creation and balancing with hops then back then, and they are blaming something without relaising they've grown as a brewing..Or they are using brewing software.

If you are using software, either with extract or grain, you will know the "unfermented" sweetness that the wort will be, and you also can then counter that by your choice of IBU's and hop schedule.

You can even eyeball it with the IBUGU chart.

It is true that you can have more control of the wort with AG, and can mash for sweetness or dryness....But most people, especially starting out aren't usually doing that, so their wort is going to be on average just as sweet as extract. Most people are going to mash in the low 150's which more than likely is where the maltser is mashing his grains at for extraction....that is more than lilkely where we get the numbers we use to mash our own.

But you can do some fairly dry extract beers, by simply adding simple white sugar.

 

[Beerrific]

If someone is saying that their extract beers were sweeter than the AG beers they brew today, they more than likely learned a bit more about recipe creation and balancing with hops then back then, and they are blaming something without relaising they've grown as a brewing..Or they are using brewing software.

It is also possible observations have been madeand mis-attributed to extract.

"I brewed the same recipe after I went all grain and it was not nearly as sweet as when I brewed it all extract."

Well, one big difference here is that you get much better hop utilization with full boils (as you have to do with all grain) and less utilization with partial boils (as most extract brewers do).

 

[Grinder12000]

Perhaps he was just an anti-extract All Grain brewer talking down to use Mini mashers that use a little extract.

To be honest I never had a problem with my beers until he said that! Then I started thinking that maybe he had something there.

THEN I started noticing Commercial brew and . .WAIT A MINUTE - I was comparing my brews to LAGERS!! Daaa! My ambers to commercial ambers which happen to be lagars!


I do full boils - BTW

 

[david_42]

The fermentability of extracts varies, but if you are hitting 1.012 with mini-mashes I'd say you are doing well.

However, to answer your question. Yes, adding the extract to the mash might dry it out a bit. Also consider that the extract will make the mash act like it is thicker. An easier way might be to dissolve the extract in some water at 100F or so and add some Beano. That will chop many of the residual complex sugars. The boil will denature the Beano, so no long-term worries. I'd try this with a recipe you've made several times and may start with just half the extract.

 

[ArcaneXor]

Well, one big difference here is that you get much better hop utilization with full boils (as you have to do with all grain).

You don't have to do full boils with all-grain. I don't (though I get pretty close @ 4.5 gallons, and I only do it with low-gravity beers like Berliner Weisse, Milds, etc). You take an efficiency hit because you have less sparge water to play with, and a very slight hit to utilization because the boil is a little more concentrated, but it's certainly possible. But I wouldn't recommend anyone trying this with less than a 4-gallon boil.

But for the most part, I partial mash with 7-8 lbs of grain and the rest extract using a 4 gallon boil.

 

[Grinder12000]

Beano? LOL - never heard of this one.
Yet another use for Beano.

 

[Revvy]

It is also possible observations have been madeand mis-attributed to extract.

"I brewed the same recipe after I went all grain and it was not nearly as sweet as when I brewed it all extract."

Well, one big difference here is that you get much better hop utilization with full boils (as you have to do with all grain) and less utilization with partial boils (as most extract brewers do).

Yeah I forgot about factoring in hop utilization in regards to full boils as well...But yeah.

I also think it's the anti extract bias from many ag brewers...They often will blame extract for those bad batches, not because they were bad...more accurately, they were more inexperienced brewers back then.

This thread ended up being a great discussion about that bias..I don't think the OP expected it to take a turn that way though..

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/why-does-my-friend-want-perfect-extract-recipe-130856/#post1472096

 

[Grinder12000]

Actually the original comment from the AG guy (nice guy really) and then me THINKING I'm tasting ale when it was lager and then comparing my ales to lagers! OOPS!!

I have not tasted that many GOOD Home brews. In fact MY home brew was the very first homebrew I had ever tasted!!

We started a Homebrew club but most are still pretty new - I can tell some guys getting better every month.

There is a Homebrew Festival next weekend in London WI (near Madison) with 12ish homebrewers. You guys should check it out!

Londonunder.net

 

[Ale-ing]

One way to cut the sweetness would be to replace a small amount of the malt with sugar, either corn sugar or candi sugar. Some people use plain table sugar with good results. You can make your own candi sugar (partially inverted sugar) on the stove with table sugar and a little citric acid. You can find instructions for doing it here: How to make Candi Sugar - Home Brewing Wiki
*Note, you don't have to do the final step where he pours it out on a screen to dry it. You can just make clear candi sugar syrup in fifteen or twenty minutes before or while boiling your wort and dump it right in, maybe watering it down a little first.

A lot of people frown on using sugar, but if you only replace a half a pound or maybe even a pound you're only using between less than 9% to less than 17% sugar in a batch you would make with 6 pounds of malt. Since such a small amount of your fermentable base is sugar it will not leave a wine taste. The sugar will ferment clean and you'll just have that much less malty sweetness in your final product. It will definitely dry your beer. You just might not want to tell any purists you used sugar.