color change after bottling

[killsurfcity]

heh heh!

pardon my annoyance, but i'm pretty tired of lazy answers at this point.

 

[orangehero]

What is the argument that it's not oxidation that so definitively rules it out and why is it most likely some non-oxidative chemical reaction, whatever that means?

 

[killsurfcity]

what's the argument that it is? if it was oxidation it'd be a common problem. unless there's some science i'm unaware of that you could enlighten me about.

1) i have yet to hear any evidence that makes a reasonable argument that oxidation could cause a color change.

2) loads of people clean with oxi and sanitize with star san, and probably many splash **** all over while doing so. if THAT was the cause of this color change there would be 1000 threads about it.

3) in my case the chance this beer in particular is oxidized is slim to none. it was racked carefully, and wasn't really touch or moved for six months after.

4) i tend to believe what Revvy says here. i'd love to find the research, but it follows what's been my general experience...

It takes a lot of splashing to do any damage, someone on basic brewing years ago, (Palmer, or Chris Colby of BYO) said that in order to truly provide enough O2 to oxydize our beers it would take pumping an entire one of our red oxygen bottle/airstones into our beer AFTER fermentation is complete.

Most of the splashing intentional or accidental that we do in the course of our brewing will not harm it...

That doesn't mean you want to dump your carboy into the bottling bucket, or do other careless things. You still want to be gentle when moving your beer from vessel to vessel.

BUT it does mean that if we spalsh, or have to use our autosiphon to pump our beer is something goes wrong, that we don't need to panic about it.

I've had all sorts of problems, like bottling a blond ale with peaches in it,that kept jamming the bottling wand and auto siphon, and the beer's still turned out just fine.

And beside Oxygenation damage isn't immediate anyway, most of us would have our beer drunk long before it would happen.
I had some major f-ups with bottling on occasion and still haven't oxydized a batch.

5) The flavor we had in our beer are completely different from those of an oxidized beer... From the Homebrew Association website:

The Flavors of Oxidation
The majority of the stale flavors that develop as beer ages are the result of oxidation. Molecules of the various flavor compounds and alcohols within the beer undergo a chemical reaction with oxygen to form the molecules responsible for the stale taste. Fusel alcohols, acetaldehyde, and trans-2-nonenal are the primary culprits responsible for the majority of off-flavors associated with stale, oxidized beer, but other compounds also contribute.
The specific way in which oxidation impacts the flavor and aroma of beer depends on many details specific to the particular type of beer that is experiencing oxidation. If trans-2-nonenal is formed in a lighter beer, it may cause a papery or lipstick-like flavor. Trans-2-nonenal (an aldehyde compound) has a flavor threshold of about 0.1 ppb. The aroma characteristics of many lighter beers can also be affected by oxidation. The malt character initially present in the aroma of a fresh beer may change in a way that causes the aroma to be perceived as somewhat “honey-like.” This is due to the formation of 2,3-pentanedione. While this may not necessarily be unpleasant, it is probably not what the brewer originally intended.
Darker, fuller-bodied beers tend to be affected differently by oxidation. As a darker, fuller-bodied beer becomes oxidized, rich malt flavors and aromas are replaced by sweeter, sherry-like flavors. These sherry-like flavors are the result of the oxidation of the malty-tasting chemicals in beer called melanoidins. Darker, fuller-bodied beers contain lots of melanoidins. The oxidation products of melanoidins are myriad and have a wide range of flavors. One of the products of the oxidation of melanoidins is benzaldehyde. Benzaldehyde has an almond-like flavor and is a primary contributor to the sherry-like flavor in oxidized beer. A small amount of these sherry-like flavors may add complexity to the flavor and aroma of certain strong beer styles like dark Belgian ales and barleywines, but even a small amount of these sherry-like flavors is usually not considered appropriate in lighter, lower alcohol beers. Even in darker, fuller-bodied beers, too much oxidation of the malt melanoidins will eventually cause the original rich malt flavor of the beer to take on a more toffee-like taste, and then, eventually, to be lost altogether.
Another flavor that may be caused by oxidation is the buttery/butterscotch flavor of diacetyl. Diacetyl is formed by the oxidation of alpha acetolactate (a normal by-product of yeast metabolism). Many breweries use brewing techniques to prevent the presence of the alpha acetolactate precursor in the finished beer, but some breweries use techniques that allow this precursor to be present. If alpha acetolactate is present in the finished beer, it will eventually oxidize to diacetyl, and the intensity of the characteristic buttery/butterscotch flavor will increase as the beer ages.

personally, i think most of the time when people on here say they have oxidation, they really have infected beer. first of all, it's not like these diagnosis are scientific. people read about this ****, **** up a beer, and then go... "my beer got oxidized". that's completely meaningless.

i'm also pretty familiar with oxidized flavors, from drinking very old beer, sherry, madeira. oxidation is a wonderful flavor when it's where it should be. THIS, this is another animal entirely.

 

[orangehero]

I don't remember the specific chemistry of oxidation darkening in beer (probably polyphenols), but every brewing textbook and professional article on the topic mentions it. Try looking up articles by Charles Bamforth.

Oxidation darkens stuff, for example wood, or cut fruits and vegetables (though that is accelerated by enzymes).

I don't know that it is oxidation but here's what I see from the descriptions: darkening, dull papery flavor, happens following bottling.

What is your source of water? Metal ions like iron can catalyze oxidation reactions, that may explain why it happens so rapidly.

 

[killsurfcity]

i'd like to see any of those articles.

oxidation darkens stuff, may be generally true, but it's hardly useful here beyond being mildly interesting without some evidence of some kind.

this wasn't dull papery flavor, you may want to look at the descriptions again. and it didn't happen to us after bottling. it was after racking.

the water is rural well water. it's pretty damn good water actually. and if it was the water, it would have happens the 100 other times we've done this exact same thing.

i wish i had some photos of our beers, the darkening was so dramatic. straw golden to **** brown in 2 days...

 

[MrBlackjaw]

I had the same issue with a batch of White IPA I dry hopped with a large dose of Galaxy hops. The yeast used was WLP585 Saison III and was bottled within a month of brewing. I bottled 12 bottles of the White IPA plain. The rest of the batch was put into champagne bottles with Brett B. The clean version is the purple murky version. The Brett B version is a perfect Witbier color.

Here is the variable: I used 12 oz bottles from my stash that were cleaned in Oxiclean Free. The champagne bottles were used as is from the local homebrew store.

StarSan is my choice in sanitizer, which is always mixed with distilled water.

To further muck up the waters, I just recently bottled a Belgian Blonde that used bottles from my stash that were cleaned in Oxiclean Free and it is a perfect BJCP blonde color.

Seriously, what is going on?

 

[cageybee]

blackjaw, no chance that sunlight got to some (I have no idea why that would make a difference).....what about temperature swings, anything possible there? there is a possible variable here that can't be measured easily, and that is that these sanitizing compounds effect the ph of the water they're contained in. I wonder if rather than an oxidation-type effect we are seeing a ph effect of the sanitizing residue?

 

[MrBlackjaw]

blackjaw, no chance that sunlight got to some (I have no idea why that would make a difference).....what about temperature swings, anything possible there? there is a possible variable here that can't be measured easily, and that is that these sanitizing compounds effect the ph of the water they're contained in. I wonder if rather than an oxidation-type effect we are seeing a ph effect of the sanitizing residue?

Nope, sunlight is not an issue. Also, my basement temps are pretty steady and really only shift a degree or two on unusual weather phenomenon during the winter. I wish I could remember if I conditioned these at 72° in my ferm chamber for a week or so, but I don't see anything in my notes.

I am not super knowledgeable in StarSan pH, but my understanding is that when you use distilled water, it takes it quite some time to get out of balance. I don't have strips to test it, not that it matters now, because I just made a fresh batch. It is always crystal clear when I use it and I typically make a new batch every 3 months, but this depends on how much brewing I am doing. Sometimes it is less than 3 months.

I do plan on getting a bottle rinsing apparatus soon. Right now I do a double shaking rinse with hot water when I take bottles out of Oxiclean bath. I have new bottles coming into my supply constantly and lose bottles frequently to friends and family.

I also plan on mixing some TSP substitute into my Oxiclean Free, just haven't found a definitive answer yet on a good ratio.

 

[cageybee]

If I can find my ph meter, I'll do some tests...but I don't have any oxyclean so I can't test that right away.

 

[cageybee]

oh, did you use a bottle filling rod, and if so...how do you clean/sanitize that?

 

[MrBlackjaw]

I attach my wand to the spigot on the bottling bucket. I always rinse it, then soak it in Oxi after each use. Before I use it again, it goes in the sanitizing bucket for at least 15 minutes (only because I am doing other things).

Like I said, my follow up bottling session of my Belgian Blonde did not produce the same results. The difference is that I had just made a fresh batch of StarSan for it. Wait, a vanilla oak porter was in between, but obviously I won't see a color change on that.

It should be noted that I do not taste any off flavors in my White IPA, it just looks weird. Although, I am not a certified tasting expert in anyway, so maybe I am missing it.

 

[hopdoc]

It seems that everyone that has experienced this phenomenon has active lactobacillus or brettanomyces, right?

I have brewed a bunch of Berliner weisse and always boil (which kills the lactobacillus) after a sour mash, and have never had this "purple taint". This makes me think that is is the active sour yeasts that are causes the darkening and off flavors.

Where is everyone sourcing their sour yeast? White labs? Home made starter? Spontaneous fermentation? Has anyone done a sour mash, then boiled and experienced purple taint?

One of my brews accidentally caught a wild yeast, and it darkened dramatically (3 srm to maybe 8 srm), and has held on to its chill haze (yeast haze, whatever). The flavor is not metallic, but it did dull the hop flavors, ended up somewhat fruity, dull. This might be similar to what you all have described as purple taint...

I am sure that all of our techniques are wildly different, the only definite similarities come from the use of sour yeasts....

 

[JoeMomma85]

Mine wasn't hit with Brett or lacto although I can't fully rule out a Brett infection without having it tested/inspected but it's gone now. Didn't remind me of Brett.though and only one of the two batches I split to dryhop got it.

 

[killsurfcity]

me posting in this thread is probably muddying the waters for OP a bit, but my other thread didn't get as much action.

fwiw, this is what i've always thought. the two beers we had go off both had brett/lacto/pedio. it seems to be unique to them. none of the many other beers i've done has seen this issue. our bugs are dregs blends i grew up. they've performed really well in other beers, and in this case the barrel beer was fine, just the racked off portions went bad. odd.

 

[ShawDeuce22]

*****Reporting back with some findings*****

I bottled 12 - 12oz, 6 - 22oz, and 2 - 750mL swingtops (Hill Farmstead growlers)
12oz bottles - Darkest of all of the beers, no off flavor.
22oz bottles - Same color as the original post (on page 1, picture taken from a 22oz), no off flavor
750mL STs - roughly the same color as the gravity reading sample but still darker, no off flavor
(wish I had pictures, but maybe I can work on that...stay tuned)

Bottling procedure: (start with cleaned bottles) Rinse with hot water twice, fill bottling bucket with room temp StarSan, fill bottles with santized solution, dump back into bucket. The only thing that I can see with my particular case is some form of reaction with the StarSan and the WLP644 Brett Brux Trois. I'm brewing another batch of this same beer this weekend with some different hops. I will try my best to keep this thread up to date with how it goes.

EDIT: For those asking - ZERO Lacto was used in this beer, it was 100% WLP 644 primary.

 

[sweetcell]

there is a potential flaw in the argument that the color isn't due to oxidation because the beer doesn't taste oxidized. the amount of O2 required to react with something in the beer (say, metals or some other chemical) could be a lot lower than the taste threshold.

 

[killsurfcity]

meh, read the thread. it's more complicated than that. plus, there's yet to be a compelling argument that it is oxidation, other than thats what everyone says everything is on this board.

anyway, i think i'm going to unfollow this thread, seeing as how it seems me and OP are having a different enough issue that I don't want to jack his thread.

 

[ShawDeuce22]

*****Back with pictures*****

Here is a picture of the beer taken from the test cylinder after the gravity reading for reference:

Picture from 12oz:


Picture from 22oz:


Picture from 750mL:


All of these pictures are stolen from friends, but this is the best I can do currently (especially with no 750mL's left).

[EDIT] Spelling (yes, I spelled "picture" wrong...and "from")

 

[TNGabe]

there is a potential flaw in the argument that the color isn't due to oxidation because the beer doesn't taste oxidized. the amount of O2 required to react with something in the beer (say, metals or some other chemical) could be a lot lower than the taste threshold.

Lots of the beers in this thread have brett in them. Brett is an anti-oxidative reactant. Shenanigans!

 

[andrewcoopergt]

Trying to revive this thread, even though it got a little snippy.

I too have been struck with the purple. Brett dregs added to a saison after fermentation was complete. You will see attached the finished saison in comparision with it's 1 gallon experiment with Orval and Sofie dregs.

It has to be some Brett overreaction with oxygen, right? I cant really imagine that there was any kind of oxygenation problem, though, as i did nothing different than any other beer i have done over the 2 years ive been at it, but who knows?

Anyone able to wait this out and salvage the awful purple?

 

[Hookstrat]

RE: AndrewCooperGT ~ Can you be more specific than "Brett dregs"?

 

[andrewcoopergt]

RE: AndrewCooperGT ~ Can you be more specific than "Brett dregs"?

I added the dregs from a fresh bottle of Orval and a fresh bottle of GI Sofie.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Reviving this a bit, as it has happened to me, too.

Brewed a lambic in March. I had a half gallon of wort left over, so I put it in a 1 gallon jug, added T-58 and some random dregs (Petrus aged pale, JP dregs), and it was happily fermenting away until recently.

It had a nice, thick pellicle until a week ago. I noticed it fell, and was replaced a couple days later by a very thin one, which looked different. Then over the course of 2-3 days (between when I looked at it), it changed from a light 2-3 SRM color to a dark purple. Very weird. I'll get pics, but yeah...I'm stumped.

 

[emjay]

It seems to be some sort of infection that stays in suspension causing light to scatter and produce the color purple. It may not even be limited to a specific species.

 

[corwin3083]

It seems to be some sort of infection that stays in suspension causing light to scatter and produce the color purple. It may not even be limited to a specific species.

If it's something in suspension, do finings eliminate it?

 

[mot]

it changes flavor to, well at least in my case it did

 

[AlexF]

I've had some similar experiences to what folks are describing here so I'm gonna revive this...

Actually, I've had two different problems which I suspect are different levels of intensity of the same problem, but could in fact be two totally different problems. I started a separate thread too which is here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/off-flavor-ipas-438725/

First, for a while I was brewing a lot of 1 gallon batches just to test recipes and hop flavors and so on, and after a point I started having a problem that is basically identical to what people have described in this thread. These batches would turn out with a murky brownish/purplish haze (and very purplish slurry) and a disgusting metallic/rusty/burned/chemical flavor. Totally undrinkable. It happened with every batch for a while so eventually I quit brewing 1 gal batches. I assumed there was some kind of infection in my equipment for those batches (which is different from equipment for full size batches).

But more recently, I've bottled the remaining batches I had in 1 gal fermenters and found that some of them are totally fine. And I realized that all the screwed up batches were IPAs or other kinds of hoppy/dry-hopped beers--a wit and a couple of 100% brett beers that I had in 1 gal fermenters turned out totally normal. Which is what leads me to think this is the same problem in more extreme form as my other problem.

That other problem has been with all of my 5 gal IPA/Pale Ale batches for a while now, and actually with every dry-hopped beer except for one (which was a really hoppy saison, almost a farmhouse IPA really). These beers aren't nearly as disgusting as the purple 1 gal batches, but all of them have had the same weird off flavor. It's hard to describe--chemical, metallic, maybe soapy or grassy...it could be a much lighter version of the same gross stuff in the small batches but I'm not fully convinced.

But this has happened to EVERY ONE of the IPAs I've brewed for several months--and I'm talking like 10+ batches of IPAs. During that time I've brewed dozens of batches of other styles of beer, and not had any trace of this problem in a single one of them. And there are no differences in my process or water treatment or equipment or anything between the hoppy stuff and non-hoppy stuff except for dry-hopping, and occasionally (but not always) adding gypsum to the hoppy beers since my water here is a little soft.

The 5 gal IPA batches do seem to be a bit darker than they should be. Sometimes this is more obvious than other times, with a brownish tint. I don't think I've noticed the purple color in any of the large batches.

So, uh, what?

 

[theQ]

I am going to add my case here too.

I usually keg, the kegged beer stays bright keeps the color.
When I bottle the color goes 3-4 SRM darker and the aroma subsides a bit. The part with aroma I get, in time aging beer dulls the aroma.

I will give you the example of my last batch, when I'd have pics I'd post them.

I brew a 10 galon batch of Saison. Half with WY 3711 and half with WL 550 just to compare the strains.

After the secondary before racking them out i tasted them plain, and both tasted good, some difference but good saisons.

the 3711 went to keg and is haze golden(imagine a golden haze pilsner) great saison color.
the 550 I bottled with *table sugar* and kept it in my brewpi driven fermentation chamber at 75 for 2 weeks but when I tasted the 12oz bottle the color was golden brown no longer yellow gold.

No off flavor which is good but what in the world is going on on the color.
the only common thing in all my bottle beer is table sugar, can that be the culprit ?

the sanitation is standards, clean the bottles with oxy clean, then rinse them with water then do the starsan. I use a bottle cleaner (the italian red thing that shoots liquid upwards) then I drain the excess of starsan.

 

[Oldsock]

Whether oxygen is directly or indirectly the cause, it certainly plays a role. Here is a picture of the same beer (a pale sour beer aged in a wine barrel). The only difference is that the one on the right was poured 10 days ago and left in my cool/dark basement until tonight. The one on the left is freshly poured.

 

[smokinghole]

Oxygen certainly plays a role. When you look at the long aged oxidized wines they all change color. Whites turn more brown/amber and reds get lighter I think. I have a bottle of a fondillion wine that I have yet to drink but I understand the wine has a more red/amber color compared to fresh reds.

 

[theQ]

I had a similar problem with an IPA beer I recently brewed - it turned murky brown/red after bottling, even though it was a nice golden colour before.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/beer-darkened-during-bottling-402445/

Someone locally suggested it may be due to too concentrated Starsan during the sanitation phase, but I have no idea. I am at a complete loss as well to explain it as two bottles only darkened moderately (went from golden yellow to a light murky brown), but the rest darkened so much as to more resemble a murky amber ale.

I can't agree more. Brew a saison, golden bright yellow color, ended up with brandy like color. No off flavors... I can't agree this is oxidation either!

 

[theQ]

Whether oxygen is directly or indirectly the cause, it certainly plays a role. Here is a picture of the same beer (a pale sour beer aged in a wine barrel). The only difference is that the one on the right was poured 10 days ago and left in my cool/dark basement until tonight. The one on the left is freshly poured.

The open glass was left at room temp uncovered but in the bottled beer is insulated from oxygen. There is little oxygen left in, at the top of the bottle.

 

[Oldsock]

The open glass was left at room temp uncovered but in the bottled beer is insulated from oxygen. There is little oxygen left in, at the top of the bottle.

More oxygen would mean more darkening. The tiny amount of air trapped in a bottle might be enough to cause a faint color shift (although I use oxygen-absorbing caps), minimal compared to the free-flow of air for an extended period of time.

I also tried dusting a bit of Oxyclean into a glass of beer, but didn't see a dramatic color change over a few hours.

 

[orangehero]

Oxidation doesn't necessarily happen from the air in the bottle. For as long as the beer is exposed to the air (in the bottling bucket or whatever) it is absorbing oxygen, especially if there's any movement and splashing. The oxidation reaction is also not instantaneous, that's why you see it continue over time.

 

[Bennywisest]

This was a very interesting read, and may have brought to light an issue I had previously with an an IPA I brewed. The IPA was only fermented with Cal V I believe and no Brett or Bugs were intentionally added. The beer had Nice golden color at bottling and a wonderful tropical pine forest flavor / aroma. After conditioning, quite a few bottles were gushers, those that weren't all were a reddish color (similar to the color of Nugget Nectar). A few I drank tasted horrible, very solventy (nail polish like). Others taste fine though and are still this reddish color.

Recalling my process I believe I had an infection in some of the bottles. All of my bottles were previously used for both homebrew and commercial beer, at various stages of cleanliness. I usually soak in Oxyclean, then bottle brush, and rinse with a bottle sprayer. I then sanitize the bottles with Star San, but holding them in a bucket until they fill and pour it out. I believe that day I didn't use the bottle brush on most of the bottles that "appeared" to not have any residue in them. I don't remember why I didn't brush each out (probably just being lazy).

So I think I had a wild yeast infect most (or maybe all of the bottles). Which might bring my experience in line with a lot of the results from Brett users. I'm not sure what condition is the cause is but it seems that wild yeast (brett) is reacting with something to make the color change.

I have not had this problem since this one time ( about 4 batches ago). /knockonwood

For reference my IPA looked almost exactly like ShawDeuce22's experience. Some of the bottles were a bit darker red, but very close.

I had the exact same thing happen to me. All brett brux trois primary, pale meets IPA, warrior bitter, nelson sauvin and motueka late hops, nelson sauvin motueka and citra dry hop.

This is a sample poured after I took the FG reading:

...and this is from after I opened a bottle 6 days later (fully carb'd BTW):

I'm going to let it sit in bottles for a few more weeks

 

[aaronthechamp]

The last two batches I have brewed have had this problem!

Batch 1 - Pale Ale - mostly pale malt with a bit of carafoam and victory. Had a few problems during brewing so when bottle conditioning was done and I found out I had reddish-purple beer, I figured it was those original problems and dumped the batch. Some bottles seemed worse than others, with definite off flavors there.

Batch 2 - Rye IPA - I took an Alpine Nelson IPA clone and changed it into my own thing, but the color should have been similar - less than 6 SRM.

Malt Bill - 8.5 lbs Pale, 2.25 lbs Rye, .75 lbs Crystal 20, Some corn sugar.

Bottle conditioned and color came out the same as batch one. reddish brown. See picture below.

The batch I made before these two batches was a saison that I bottled with brett (it came out great). I thought I cleaned my bottling bucket sufficiently, but now that I think about it - I may not have taken out the spigot and cleaned until after batch 1. But now that I read this thread and have had two batches come out with this color (and flavor) problem, I figure it must have something to do with the brett leftover in the bottling bucket. Of course it could also be something in the bottles.

So I'm going to thoroughly clean everything before my next batch, but wanted to fill everyone in on my story to see if it helps get to the bottom of anything.