COLD CRASH vs LAGERING

[abracadabra]

Yes Lager in German does mean "to store" the intent was to cold store and originally the people who made beer had no knowledge or understanding of yeast. So over time the meaning of Lager has changed from cold storage to a specific yeast, process and type of beer. The meaning of words change over time just as Merry once meant Mighty hence Robin Hoods Merry men were not happy but mighty fighting men.

So have a Merry Christmas in both the old and current meanings!

 

[passedpawn]

Not to muddy the waters, but lager yeasts technically do produce a cleaner beer, all else being equal. They convert complex sugars that ale yeasts do not. In fact, this is the strictest definition of a lager yeast.

This concludes our broadcast day. Queue the national anthem.

 

[BrianTheBrewer]

I have never brewed a lager. I would like to soon as the cold weather is here. Sam Adams makes a black lager that is very good. I may try to clone that one.

 

[cheezydemon3]

I will accept it either way.

The only thing a commercial brewer would laugh at (IMHO) is when you claim to have "crash cooled" anything.

In that case, I crash cooled my motherphucking BACON.

 

[BrianTheBrewer]

Well a commercial brewer also has thousands of dollars worth of equipment that they use.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

The only thing a commercial brewer would laugh at (IMHO) is when you claim to have "crash cooled" anything.

That's interesting... because I first learned about crash cooling because one of the brewers from Three Floyds told me they did it for all their ales... maybe he didn't know what he was talking about.

 

[BrianTheBrewer]

That's interesting... because I first learned about crash cooling because one of the brewers from Three Floyds told me they did it for all their ales... maybe he didn't know what he was talking about.

Hahahahahahahaha!!!

 

[cheezydemon3]

That's interesting... because I first learned about crash cooling because one of the brewers from Three Floyds told me they did it for all their ales... maybe he didn't know what he was talking about.

NO NO NO. pros do crash cool with expensive equipment, homebrewers typically do not have that equipment. Capiche?

PLacing a fermenter in your fridge is NOT cold crashing.

 

[BrianTheBrewer]

NO NO NO. pros do crash cool with expensive equipment, homebrewers typically do not have that equipment. Capiche?

Dont have the equipment???!!! Its called a small fridge with a temp on it.

 

[BrianTheBrewer]

PLacing a fermenter in your fridge is NOT cold crashing.

What is that called then?

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

NO NO NO. pros do crash cool with expensive equipment, homebrewers typically do not have that equipment. Capiche?

Placing a fermenter in your fridge is NOT cold crashing.

On the contrary, in my fermentation chamber I can drop the temperature of my beer from ferment temps to 32 in about 4-5 hours. I haven't asked about the time it takes most pros to do it, but I highly doubt their glycol systems remove that much heat.

Regardless, the time in which the temperature is dropped does not effect the end product. It is the terminal temperature, and to some effect the amount of time held at that temperature that affects how much and what drops out of solution. This is a great podcast including Dr. Bamforth of UC Davis that describes much of this.

Temperature is temperature. Whether you pay a million dollars to install a thousand gallon fermenter with glycol cooling, or have a 5g glass carboy in a fermentation chamber, the same thing happens at a given temperature. Many things are different for the big boys, precipitation of compounds at a given temperature is not one of them.

Capiche?

Also, don't call me a douchbag.

 

[BrianTheBrewer]

On the contrary, in my fermentation chamber I can drop the temperature of my beer from ferment temps to 32 in about 4-5 hours. I haven't asked about the time it takes most pros to do it, but I highly doubt their glycol systems remove that much heat.

Regardless, the time in which the temperature is dropped does not effect the end product. It is the terminal temperature, and to some effect the amount of time held at that temperature that affects how much and what drops out of solution. This is a great podcast including Dr. Bamforth of UC Davis that describes much of this.

Temperature is temperature. Whether you pay a million dollars to install a thousand gallon fermenter with glycol cooling, or have a 5g glass carboy in a fermentation chamber, the same thing happens at a given temperature. Many things are different for the big boys, precipitation of compounds at a given temperature is not one of them.

Capiche?

Also, don't call me a douchbag.

Agreed :rockin:

 

[mkling]

So, I'm trying to wrap my head around all this. One of the things that strikes me as difficult for all of this dispute over lagering & cold-crashing is that it doesn't fit for the German Ales (Alt & Kolsch). These are generally made with ale yeast & fermented around 60F (ale temps), then according to German brewers whose word we are using, they are typically "lagered" at 32-40F for around 4 weeks. BJCP calls these hybrids, but they are exactly what cheezydemon was talking about -- ale fermentation then lagering for an extended period of time.

Last summer on Brewstrong on the Brewing Network they did a show on lagering & John Palmer and Jamil Z. argued that there really isn't anything going on with the yeast when you lager -- that is, both lager & ale yeasts become inactive at 32-40F. You can lager ales if you want; they are still ales. Similarly, you can make a lager that isn't lagered, and it's still a lager. The process of lagering is independent of the kind of yeast you use.

 

[cheezydemon3]

Dont have the equipment???!!! Its called a small fridge with a temp on it.

NO NO NO. pros do crash cool with expensive equipment, homebrewers typically do not have that equipment. Capiche?

PLacing a fermenter in your fridge is NOT cold crashing.

Why would something so simple need a name like crash cooling?

 

[Soulrebel]

If I say Wurt and you say Wort...are we still making beer?

 

[BrianTheBrewer]

Why would something so simple need a name like crash cooling?

What would you like to call in then?

 

[cheezydemon3]

So, I'm trying to wrap my head around all this. One of the things that strikes me as difficult for all of this dispute over lagering & cold-crashing is that it doesn't fit for the German Ales (Alt & Kolsch). These are generally made with ale yeast & fermented around 60F (ale temps), then according to German brewers whose word we are using, they are typically "lagered" at 32-40F for around 4 weeks. BJCP calls these hybrids, but they are exactly what cheezydemon was talking about -- ale fermentation then lagering for an extended period of time.

Last summer on Brewstrong on the Brewing Network they did a show on lagering & John Palmer and Jamil Z. argued that there really isn't anything going on with the yeast when you lager -- that is, both lager & ale yeasts become inactive at 32-40F. You can lager ales if you want; they are still ales. Similarly, you can make a lager that isn't lagered, and it's still a lager. The process of lagering is independent of the kind of yeast you use.

Thank You!

All I really wanted (now that I have thought more) was for extended cold storage to be called lagering.

It just makes practical sense.

Evidently it has a precedent too.

*update* currently cold crashing EVERYTHING in my fridge........

 

[Baja_Brewer]

Why would something so simple need a name like crash cooling?

Because the name is a term that defines the action. Back to the Bacon example, why apply a term that defines what you're doing when you're heating and flipping bacon? Because it is alot easier to tell people to cook bacon when describing a process than it is to say "heat and flip bacon for 15 minutes"

The term "Cold crash" describes an action with a desired result, ie. "Cold crash for two days."

 

[Mountainbeers]

LOUD NOISES

 

[cheezydemon3]

On the contrary, in my fermentation chamber I can drop the temperature of my beer from ferment temps to 32 in about 4-5 hours. I haven't asked about the time it takes most pros to do it, but I highly doubt their glycol systems remove that much heat.

Regardless, the time in which the temperature is dropped does not effect the end product. It is the terminal temperature, and to some effect the amount of time held at that temperature that affects how much and what drops out of solution. This is a great podcast including Dr. Bamforth of UC Davis that describes much of this.

Temperature is temperature. Whether you pay a million dollars to install a thousand gallon fermenter with glycol cooling, or have a 5g glass carboy in a fermentation chamber, the same thing happens at a given temperature. Many things are different for the big boys, precipitation of compounds at a given temperature is not one of them.

Capiche?

Also, don't call me a douchbag.

First off YOU ARE NOT THE ****** WITH THE BACON COMMENT!!! Sorry, that did look confusing.

Secondly....that may be crash cooling.

I would think "Crash" would imply an hour or less, but you are probably better than most.

I appreciate and enjoy your comments. No offense was intended!

 

[BrianTheBrewer]

Wow.............

 

[riverfrontbrewer]

I have been avoiding this thread because I am not a fan of feeding trolls, and it seems to me that cheesy had her mind made up that she was going to argue anything contrary to her opinion and not listen to anyone elses ideas. Now it's reduced to name calling? Grow up

 

[OLDBREW]

I have never brewed a lager. I would like to soon as the cold weather is here. Sam Adams makes a black lager that is very good. I may try to clone that one.

Black lager beer is German Schwarz beer. I think Jamil has a decent recipe on the brewing network.

No matter what you want to call it.. If you are going to make a great Kolcsh style brew, you want to primary ferment these at 60- 62*F. Then you want to transfer over to a secondary fermenter, from there you slowly drop the temp down to around 38-40*F for your conditioning phase.

With a lager yeast, it is called the lagering phase. With a kolcsh yeast, it is called the conditioning phase. In this phase, both type yeasts (at different temps) are still active, although they are very lethargic. They are doing their clean up at this stage, even though it is slow as a snail.

You do not want to just crash the temps out on these styles. You want a nice long conditioning phase.

Good Luck

 

[cheezydemon3]

I have been avoiding this thread because I am not a fan of feeding trolls, and it seems to me that cheesy had her mind made up that she was going to argue anything contrary to her opinion and not listen to anyone elses ideas. Now it's reduced to name calling? Grow up

Yeah! That's why I thanked Yooper and a few others for an informative response.

 

[BigNastyBrew]

From How-to-Brew, our oft quoted internet companion...



Lagers are cleaner because of the yeast activity and the process of yeast activity during lagering.

The author of How to Brew has since gone on air and specifically stated otherwise, BTW. Check out the Brew Strong episode on Lagering.

 

[BigNastyBrew]

You do not want to just crash the temps out on these styles. You want a nice long conditioning phase.

Sure you can. The only reason to bring temps down slowly is if your yeast isn't finished yet. Let the yeast finish at fermentation temps and crash it.

Cold crash it and then lager it.

 

[Kaiser]

I don't think that there are many home brewers who are actually relying on continued yeast activity during the phase of cold storage. I tried the classic German fermentation (7-10 day primary and then slow cooling while the beer is not finished yet) and always ended up stalling the yeast. I think I now have some more insight why it didn't work and plan to try it again.

But if you let the yeast finish at primary temps or even a warm maturation rest, you can crash the beer to cold conditioning or lagering. I don't think that lagering necessarily implies slow temperature decrease. I cold crash after I racked the beer to a lagering keg in which I let the fermentation finish before I lower the temp to 30-32f.

Kai

 

[yeqmaster]

This thread makes me laugh... I think a few of us need to throw back a brew or two...

But good information! Thanks.

 

[BrianTheBrewer]

Love this thread...

 

[nbspindel]

i'm newer at this, but in the tradition of german beers, lagering does not refer solely to the type of yeast used. German beers were originally all top-fermenting (read: ale) yeasts, but were still lagered. I'm not sure if you would translate this simply as storing at lower temps, or slowly lowering the temps, but if you look at Alt Bier, you should find that it is an ale made in the traditional german style prior to the common use of lager yeasts. This was lagered, and based on the one i have in keg right now, still needs to be lagered/conditioned, whatever you want to call it.

If you're the argumentative type, or perhaps someone with the desire to enlighten the rest of us, what would be the difference between lagering and conditioning?

note: i am not participating in this silly argument, but trying to contribute and get answers from those more knowledgeable than I.