COLD CRASH vs LAGERING

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cheezydemon3 said:
NO NO NO. pros do crash cool with expensive equipment, homebrewers typically do not have that equipment. Capiche?

Placing a fermenter in your fridge is NOT cold crashing.
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On the contrary, in my fermentation chamber I can drop the temperature of my beer from ferment temps to 32 in about 4-5 hours. I haven't asked about the time it takes most pros to do it, but I highly doubt their glycol systems remove that much heat.

Regardless, the time in which the temperature is dropped does not effect the end product. It is the terminal temperature, and to some effect the amount of time held at that temperature that affects how much and what drops out of solution. This is a great podcast including Dr. Bamforth of UC Davis that describes much of this.

Temperature is temperature. Whether you pay a million dollars to install a thousand gallon fermenter with glycol cooling, or have a 5g glass carboy in a fermentation chamber, the same thing happens at a given temperature. Many things are different for the big boys, precipitation of compounds at a given temperature is not one of them.

Capiche?

Also, don't call me a *****bag.
 
Boerderij_Kabouter said:
On the contrary, in my fermentation chamber I can drop the temperature of my beer from ferment temps to 32 in about 4-5 hours. I haven't asked about the time it takes most pros to do it, but I highly doubt their glycol systems remove that much heat.

Regardless, the time in which the temperature is dropped does not effect the end product. It is the terminal temperature, and to some effect the amount of time held at that temperature that affects how much and what drops out of solution. This is a great podcast including Dr. Bamforth of UC Davis that describes much of this.

Temperature is temperature. Whether you pay a million dollars to install a thousand gallon fermenter with glycol cooling, or have a 5g glass carboy in a fermentation chamber, the same thing happens at a given temperature. Many things are different for the big boys, precipitation of compounds at a given temperature is not one of them.

Capiche?

Also, don't call me a *****bag.
Click to expand...

Agreed :rockin:
 
So, I'm trying to wrap my head around all this. One of the things that strikes me as difficult for all of this dispute over lagering & cold-crashing is that it doesn't fit for the German Ales (Alt & Kolsch). These are generally made with ale yeast & fermented around 60F (ale temps), then according to German brewers whose word we are using, they are typically "lagered" at 32-40F for around 4 weeks. BJCP calls these hybrids, but they are exactly what cheezydemon was talking about -- ale fermentation then lagering for an extended period of time.

Last summer on Brewstrong on the Brewing Network they did a show on lagering & John Palmer and Jamil Z. argued that there really isn't anything going on with the yeast when you lager -- that is, both lager & ale yeasts become inactive at 32-40F. You can lager ales if you want; they are still ales. Similarly, you can make a lager that isn't lagered, and it's still a lager. The process of lagering is independent of the kind of yeast you use.
 
BrianTheBrewer said:
Dont have the equipment???!!! Its called a small fridge with a temp on it.
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cheezydemon3 said:
NO NO NO. pros do crash cool with expensive equipment, homebrewers typically do not have that equipment. Capiche?

PLacing a fermenter in your fridge is NOT cold crashing.
Click to expand...


Why would something so simple need a name like crash cooling?
 
mkling said:
So, I'm trying to wrap my head around all this. One of the things that strikes me as difficult for all of this dispute over lagering & cold-crashing is that it doesn't fit for the German Ales (Alt & Kolsch). These are generally made with ale yeast & fermented around 60F (ale temps), then according to German brewers whose word we are using, they are typically "lagered" at 32-40F for around 4 weeks. BJCP calls these hybrids, but they are exactly what cheezydemon was talking about -- ale fermentation then lagering for an extended period of time.

Last summer on Brewstrong on the Brewing Network they did a show on lagering & John Palmer and Jamil Z. argued that there really isn't anything going on with the yeast when you lager -- that is, both lager & ale yeasts become inactive at 32-40F. You can lager ales if you want; they are still ales. Similarly, you can make a lager that isn't lagered, and it's still a lager. The process of lagering is independent of the kind of yeast you use.
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Thank You!

All I really wanted (now that I have thought more) was for extended cold storage to be called lagering.

It just makes practical sense.

Evidently it has a precedent too.

*update* currently cold crashing EVERYTHING in my fridge........
 
cheezydemon3 said:
Why would something so simple need a name like crash cooling?
Click to expand...

Because the name is a term that defines the action. Back to the Bacon example, why apply a term that defines what you're doing when you're heating and flipping bacon? Because it is alot easier to tell people to cook bacon when describing a process than it is to say "heat and flip bacon for 15 minutes"

The term "Cold crash" describes an action with a desired result, ie. "Cold crash for two days."
 
Boerderij_Kabouter said:
On the contrary, in my fermentation chamber I can drop the temperature of my beer from ferment temps to 32 in about 4-5 hours. I haven't asked about the time it takes most pros to do it, but I highly doubt their glycol systems remove that much heat.

Regardless, the time in which the temperature is dropped does not effect the end product. It is the terminal temperature, and to some effect the amount of time held at that temperature that affects how much and what drops out of solution. This is a great podcast including Dr. Bamforth of UC Davis that describes much of this.

Temperature is temperature. Whether you pay a million dollars to install a thousand gallon fermenter with glycol cooling, or have a 5g glass carboy in a fermentation chamber, the same thing happens at a given temperature. Many things are different for the big boys, precipitation of compounds at a given temperature is not one of them.

Capiche?

Also, don't call me a *****bag.
Click to expand...

First off YOU ARE NOT THE ****** WITH THE BACON COMMENT!!! Sorry, that did look confusing.

Secondly....that may be crash cooling.

I would think "Crash" would imply an hour or less, but you are probably better than most.

I appreciate and enjoy your comments. No offense was intended!

:mug:
 
I have been avoiding this thread because I am not a fan of feeding trolls, and it seems to me that cheesy had her mind made up that she was going to argue anything contrary to her opinion and not listen to anyone elses ideas. Now it's reduced to name calling? Grow up
 
BrianTheBrewer said:
I have never brewed a lager. I would like to soon as the cold weather is here. Sam Adams makes a black lager that is very good. I may try to clone that one.
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Black lager beer is German Schwarz beer. I think Jamil has a decent recipe on the brewing network.

No matter what you want to call it.. If you are going to make a great Kolcsh style brew, you want to primary ferment these at 60- 62*F. Then you want to transfer over to a secondary fermenter, from there you slowly drop the temp down to around 38-40*F for your conditioning phase.

With a lager yeast, it is called the lagering phase. With a kolcsh yeast, it is called the conditioning phase. In this phase, both type yeasts (at different temps) are still active, although they are very lethargic. They are doing their clean up at this stage, even though it is slow as a snail.

You do not want to just crash the temps out on these styles. You want a nice long conditioning phase.

Good Luck
 
DurangoHomeBrewMafia said:
I have been avoiding this thread because I am not a fan of feeding trolls, and it seems to me that cheesy had her mind made up that she was going to argue anything contrary to her opinion and not listen to anyone elses ideas. Now it's reduced to name calling? Grow up
Click to expand...

Yeah! That's why I thanked Yooper and a few others for an informative response.
 
Boerderij_Kabouter said:
From How-to-Brew, our oft quoted internet companion...



Lagers are cleaner because of the yeast activity and the process of yeast activity during lagering.
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The author of How to Brew has since gone on air and specifically stated otherwise, BTW. Check out the Brew Strong episode on Lagering.
 
OLDBREW said:
You do not want to just crash the temps out on these styles. You want a nice long conditioning phase.
Click to expand...

Sure you can. The only reason to bring temps down slowly is if your yeast isn't finished yet. Let the yeast finish at fermentation temps and crash it.

Cold crash it and then lager it.
 
I don't think that there are many home brewers who are actually relying on continued yeast activity during the phase of cold storage. I tried the classic German fermentation (7-10 day primary and then slow cooling while the beer is not finished yet) and always ended up stalling the yeast. I think I now have some more insight why it didn't work and plan to try it again.

But if you let the yeast finish at primary temps or even a warm maturation rest, you can crash the beer to cold conditioning or lagering. I don't think that lagering necessarily implies slow temperature decrease. I cold crash after I racked the beer to a lagering keg in which I let the fermentation finish before I lower the temp to 30-32f.

Kai
 
This thread makes me laugh... I think a few of us need to throw back a brew or two...

But good information! Thanks.
 
i'm newer at this, but in the tradition of german beers, lagering does not refer solely to the type of yeast used. German beers were originally all top-fermenting (read: ale) yeasts, but were still lagered. I'm not sure if you would translate this simply as storing at lower temps, or slowly lowering the temps, but if you look at Alt Bier, you should find that it is an ale made in the traditional german style prior to the common use of lager yeasts. This was lagered, and based on the one i have in keg right now, still needs to be lagered/conditioned, whatever you want to call it.

If you're the argumentative type, or perhaps someone with the desire to enlighten the rest of us, what would be the difference between lagering and conditioning?

note: i am not participating in this silly argument, but trying to contribute and get answers from those more knowledgeable than I.
 
I always thought lagering was having the yeast still active and fermenting at cooler temps. While cold crashing was have the beer stored at cooler temps to clear it up, with no yeast active at all.
 
Julohan said:
I always thought lagering was having the yeast still active and fermenting at cooler temps. While cold crashing was have the beer stored at cooler temps to clear it up, with no yeast active at all.
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Evidently that is correct.

But it has also been demonstrated that both sides of the "discussion" can prove their point depending on the info cited.
 
I must of read over it and not saw it. How are you lagering when you are cold crashing. Yeast are inactive when you are cold crashing. Which means you are not lagering. This reminds of a square and rectangle. Every square is a rectangle. Not every rectangle is a square. If that makes since.
 
Julohan said:
I must of read over it and not saw it. How are you lagering when you are cold crashing. Yeast are inactive when you are cold crashing. Which means you are not lagering. This reminds of a square and rectangle. Every square is a rectangle. Not every rectangle is a square. If that makes since.
Click to expand...

Yes, you apparently missed most of the thread.;)

Someone pointed out that they were lagering bacon since it was cold, I insisted that I was cold crashing my bacon.

You say potato.......you get it.
 
There is a precedent either way....

Storing any beer cold can be considered lagering.

You can call it "cold crashing" if the term lager offends you.
 
Call it what you like, lager, cold crash, cold storing. Whatever!!!

I am also not offended by the term lager. I like many lagers. Best one I had recently was on my honeymoon down in St Lucia. A beer called "Piton". Named after the two twin mountains on the island. Best lager I have had in a long time.
 
Yes, cold crashing is usually done quick, and the temp is lowered very quickly down to around 35ish or so. This shocks the yeast still in suspension and helps them settle faster. The cold crashing process is usually never more than a week...unless you forget about it. I think when you start making lagers, you will understand more of a difference in the process, like lowering the temp slowly untill it rests around 36. Because the idea is not to shock the yeast (lager yeast strains can withstand those temps)
 
Tmeister said:
Yes, cold crashing is usually done quick, and the temp is lowered very quickly down to around 35ish or so. This shocks the yeast still in suspension and helps them settle faster. The cold crashing process is usually never more than a week...unless you forget about it. I think when you start making lagers, you will understand more of a difference in the process, like lowering the temp slowly untill it rests around 36. Because the idea is not to shock the yeast (lager yeast strains can withstand those temps)
Click to expand...

I go to 30 after diacetyl rest of 65. I just turn the dial from 65 to 30, and it gets there less than 12 hours (overnight). My chest freezer develops a layer of ice on its floor around the carboys. 2 weeks. The beer is crazy-clear at the end of this period. Bottles still carb perfectly, and quickly.

I do wonder why the airlocks don't freeze. Maybe the starsan lowers the freezing point.
 
Look at the above....I know why

You ask a question you want an answer for, it is not the answer you already have set in your head and you argue with these people that probably know 30 times as much as you.
 

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