Cold crash, gelatin, bottling

[BruceBrews]

I have a pale ale in the fermentor and planning to cold crash it after fermentation is over and then add gelatin for the first time, before bottling. I'm curious if this will be a problem with oxidation.
First of all I need to cold crash and I understand that it will cause pressure; so when I add gelatine I need to open the bucket, so would'nt this cause a lot of air to be sucked inside the bucket? And obviously after gelatine has done its job I need to bottle the beer and potentially add more oxygen when transfering the beer to bottling bucket and ultimately to the bottles.
So if there is anyone who uses gelatin and bottles aswell, what is the proper way to handle this situation and have you had any problems using these steps?

Cheers!

 

[VikeMan]

First of all I need to cold crash and I understand that it will cause pressure; so when I add gelatine I need to open the bucket, so would'nt this cause a lot of air to be sucked inside the bucket?

Your bucket will have sucked in air long before you open it. I don't recommend cold crashing unless the fermenter setup provides a way to maintain pressure. A CO2 bladder (search "mylar balloon" and "cold crash guardian") might be a reasonable option to mitigate that.

 

[BruceBrews]

Your bucket will have sucked in air long before you open it. I don't recommend cold crashing unless the fermenter setup provides a way to maintain pressure. A CO2 bladder (search "mylar balloon" and "cold crash guardian") might be a reasonable option to mitigate that.

Does gelatin work only with cold temperature or can I add gelatine and just bottle after a few days without cold crashing?

 

[Pappers_]

@bruce_brews I've never used gelatin at room temps, but have read that it works much better cold. Oxidation isn't a problem for most beers and brewers, in that its not a noticeable flaw in their beers within the timeframe that most beers get drunk. Now, if you're going to keep your pale ale for two years, then you want to be careful about oxidation, but if you're going to drink it in the next few months, cold crashing and adding gelatin finings will not likely lead to noticeable oxidation.

If you are bottle conditioning (not kegging) your beers, I would go to reasonable lengths, but nothing extraordinary, to deal with oxygen on the cold side. Priming, transferring to your bottling bucket, using the wand to get the beer into bottles, all will have some oxygen exposure. If you begin to have beers with oxidation issues - tastes like cardboard, paper, and sherry or discoloring - then you can address it. But likely, you won't have those issues following standard homebrew practices.

 

[BruceBrews]

@bruce_brews I've never used gelatin at room temps, but have read that it works much better cold. Oxidation isn't a problem for most beers and brewers, in that its not a noticeable flaw in their beers within the timeframe that most beers get drunk. Now, if you're going to keep your pale ale for two years, then you want to be careful about oxidation, but if you're going to drink it in the next few months, cold crashing and adding gelatin finings will not likely lead to noticeable oxidation.

If you are bottle conditioning (not kegging) your beers, I would go to reasonable lengths, but nothing extraordinary, to deal with oxygen on the cold side. Priming, transferring to your bottling bucket, using the wand to get the beer into bottles, all will have some oxygen exposure. If you begin to have beers with oxidation issues - tastes like cardboard, paper, and sherry or discoloring - then you can address it. But likely, you won't have those issues following standard homebrew practices.

@Pappers_ I'm not quite sure how I will do it yet, but might just go with cold crash and gelatin. I think I will bottle straight from fermentor with priming sugars inside the bottles, just to minimize oxidation risk. If it works, great, if it doesnt, atleast i know, and being a pale ale discoloring will be noticable from oxidation.
Thanks for the help!

 

[Pappers_]

@Pappers_ I'm not quite sure how I will do it yet, but might just go with cold crash and gelatin. I think I will bottle straight from fermentor with priming sugars inside the bottles, just to minimize oxidation risk. If it works, great, if it doesnt, atleast i know, and being a pale ale discoloring will be noticable from oxidation.
Thanks for the help!

Many folks do prime per bottle, but it is more challenging to get the right amount of sugar in - dosing per bottle is much more exacting than dosing per an entie batch.

As for the discoloring from oxidation, that will likely happen only after some time - oxidation as a fault in beer is something that develops over time, its not immediately apparent. As I said, if you're planning on keeping the beer for a year, then you need to be more concerned about oxidation than if you're planning on drinking it in a few months.

None of this is to dissuade you from limiting oxygen exposure, it is a good brewing practice. But its not an absolute.

Have you had problems with oxidation previously?

 

[BruceBrews]

Have you had problems with oxidation previously?

The thing is I'm not sure if I had problems, but I have had batches that did not taste that good and want to learn if oxidation was a contriubtor to them. I've been ignorantly blaming it on oxidation, but could really have been something else, like underpitching, temperature etc. I guess I wanted to make sure to minimize all oxygen just in case that has been the problem for the batches not tasting good.
But if faults caused by oxidation develops that much later it probably has not been the problem, my beer have not lasted for many months.

 

[Nubiwan]

I am in the midst of the exact same dilemma. I have my plastic pale at 38 degrees now and it’s dropped there over 24 hours. The real question being asked, in my opinion, is how much of an adverse affect will 02 exposure have during a cold crash, exposing to allow gelatin in. Even if you don’t see an airlock bubbling back, @VikeMan states O2 gets in thru an airlock, thru the liquid itself, but at what rate does that happen? I suspect not a huge amount from my limited scientific education.

I already know that bottling in a bottling bucket hasn’t ruined any of my previous beers. Nor removing airlock to dry hop. But this is during active fermentation. Plus, the time I open the fermentor to getting the last bottle sealed is perhaps one hour.

I am guessing many people expose worts to dry hop and take gravity, and not sure we hear much woe from them. Though How many people come on here and say they just made junk and tossed it?

Mines is also a lager, and I don’t really do many lagers, so haven’t got a previous comparison.

I think I’m going to open the airlock and put in my gelatin solution and also add a little ascorbic acid which worked to ward off oxidation in a recent IPA I made. I’ll submit results either here or in my parallel thread. I’m going to bottle in 24 hours after that.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...-a-plastic-fermentor-gelatin-how-long.690881/

 

[Nubiwan]

I have a pale ale in the fermentor and planning to cold crash it after fermentation is over and then add gelatin for the first time, before bottling. I'm curious if this will be a problem with oxidation.
First of all I need to cold crash and I understand that it will cause pressure; so when I add gelatine I need to open the bucket, so would'nt this cause a lot of air to be sucked inside the bucket? And obviously after gelatine has done its job I need to bottle the beer and potentially add more oxygen when transfering the beer to bottling bucket and ultimately to the bottles.
So if there is anyone who uses gelatin and bottles aswell, what is the proper way to handle this situation and have you had any problems using these steps?

Cheers!

How did you make out? I am about a week behind. What did you decide?

 

[tyrub42]

If you're bottle conditioning, the conditioning process will likely counteract any o2 exposure from the cold crash (I co2 purge but I'm assuming that is not an option here).

The main source of your oxidation worries should be your bottling process especially head space. If you are able to fill your bottles higher (almost to the top with a little room for the liquid to expand as it heats up), that will do much more to prevent oxidation than anything else. Overall best practice would be co2 purge fermenter, purge bottling bucket, purge bottles, and purge headspace if there is one, plus adding ascorbic acid. Assuming you don't have any of that laying around, just limit your headspace and get the bottles up to conditioning temps ASAP (22-24c is great) and then refrigerate as soon as they're carbed, and you'll be all good

 

[VikeMan]

If you're bottle conditioning, the conditioning process will likely counteract any o2 exposure from the cold crash (I co2 purge but I'm assuming that is not an option here).

Please explain how, keeping in mind that the cold crash is not just oxygenating the beer, but that actual oxidation has already begun. People think of oxidation as something that takes a long time. But its starts as soon as O2 is dissolved, and continues until most of theO2 has been used up.

 

[3dB Brewing]

Does gelatin work only with cold temperature or can I add gelatine and just bottle after a few days without cold crashing?

Either. Gelatin will help clear what haze it encounters. At room temperature, that's regular (?) haze. Cold crashing creates chill haze, so adding gelatin to cold beer also (helps to) clear chill haze.

 

[tyrub42]

Please explain how, keeping in mind that the cold crash is not just oxygenating the beer, but that actual oxidation has already begun. People think of oxidation as something that takes a long time. But its starts as soon as O2 is dissolved, and continues until most of theO2 has been used up.

You're right that oxidation is a continual process, it's heavily impacted by time and temperature. Cold crashing to around zero degrees and then opening the fermenter to add gelatin is going to create very little oxidative stress over 24h. The bottling process will introduce much more than crashing and gelatin fining, but if that's done carefully with steps to keep it at bay, the finished beer should have no signs of oxidation within the time it takes to carbonate

 

[tyrub42]

Edit: double post

 

[tyrub42]

Edit: double post

 

[VikeMan]

You're right that oxidation is a continual process, it's heavily impacted by time and temperature. Cold crashing to around zero degrees and then opening the fermenter to add gelatin is going to create very little oxidative stress over 24h. The bottling process will introduce much more than crashing and gelatin fining, but if that's done carefully with steps to keep it at bay, the finished beer should have no signs of oxidation within the time it takes to carbonate

The problem I have with this logic is that oxygenation is cumulative. It's not just a function of whatever the "worst" thing was. The cold crash itself (if done with an airlock or any leaky vessel) introduces O2 into the headspace, which dissolves in the beer. As does opening the fermenter to add gelatin (introducing more O2 into the headspace). As does bottling. The fact that the beer was cold during the cold crash and the gelatin addition doesn't really help. All the O2 that dissolves will eventually oxidize something, except for the small amount used by yeast that no longer needs O2 to build cell walls for exponential growth.

 

[tyrub42]

The problem I have with this logic is that oxygenation is cumulative. It's not just a function of whatever the "worst" thing was. The cold crash itself (if done with an airlock or any leaky vessel) introduces O2 into the headspace, which dissolves in the beer. As does opening the fermenter to add gelatin (introducing more O2 into the headspace). As does bottling. The fact that the beer was cold during the cold crash and the gelatin addition doesn't really help. All the O2 that dissolves will eventually oxidize something, except for the small amount used by yeast that no longer needs O2 to build cell walls for exponential growth.

I hear what you're saying, but brewing is generally always a 'do the best you can with what you have' game. Even at the pro brewery level there are decisions to be made that will introduce more DO but still produce better beer (centrifuging for example, or even canning, are things that introduce oxygen but without them quality or availability suffer). The only thing I'd disagree with you on is the amount of oxygen yeast can scrub from beer during bottle conditioning. The conventional wisdom that it scrubs everything is obviously wrong, but through practice, I've come to believe that most of this oxygen is coming from the headspace of the bottles, and the amount present in beer is able to be scrubbed by bottle conditioning, and bottles will then keep better than keg-to-bottle fills. Honestly, though, we'd probably still mostly agree on this, because I do find it frustrating when people claim that bottle conditioning will unconditionally scrub bottles of any o2 in the beer and headspace, so hopefully I'm not coming off as argumentative