Cold break doesn't settle in kettle

[backflip]

I've been extract brewing for a few years now, accumulated some good equipment and techniques. But one thing I've not been able to improve on is keeping cold break out of my primary.

I get a great cold break with my dual immersion chiller setup, don't get me wrong there. Plenty of cloudy egg-drop soup in the wort. But the problem is it just hangs there once it's formed. I've yet to see it get heavy enough to fall to the bottom of the kettle. So whether I siphon the wort into the primary or use the valve on my kettle, I end up getting a good chunk of cold break with the liquid. I've tried whirlpooling with my spoon but that just shreds up the break and makes it worse.

I've read about whirlpooling using pumps, but honestly that out of my price and skill range for the present. Is there any way to get that stuff to settle out without using a pump to whirlpool?

 

[ruger988]

Using whirlfloc?

 

[jtratcliff]

Why worry about it? It'll settle out in the fermentor...

Have you seen the brulosopher's trubby vs non-trubby ex-beer-iment?

Trub in the fermentor may actually be beneficial...

 

[Sadu]

Way I see it is that you either lose the volume in the kettle or in the fermentor. All things being equal its easier to dump everything in the ferment or and enjoy a slightly faster/simpler brew day. Makes no difference to clarity. Just my 2c.

 

[theDREWery]

You can always whirlpool with a mix-stir and drill, siphon from the side once it gets going. Also, how long are you waiting after chilling? I frequenly will wait almost an hour, or however long it takes to clean everything but my bk, before siphoning to the fermenter.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

I suck up every drop from the brew kettle. Your loosing beer trying to leave it behind. No ill effect on final product

 

[backflip]

I am using whirlfloc and I've waited previously up to half an hour with no sign of improvement.

On my latest batch, I was more concerned about final clarity (doing my first lager). So I was hoping to cut down on trub just to improve my chances on achieving the clarity I'm looking for.

 

[Roland_deschain]

I whirlpool and then let it sit for about 10 minutes. I siphon off everything I can and then strain the dregs through a stainless sieve. I get mostly hop particulate in the sieve but it works for me.

 

[LLBeanJ]

I am using whirlfloc and I've waited previously up to half an hour with no sign of improvement.

On my latest batch, I was more concerned about final clarity (doing my first lager). So I was hoping to cut down on trub just to improve my chances on achieving the clarity I'm looking for.

Clear wort going from BK to fermenter is a waste of time and energy. The only argument for doing it that really has any validity (in my opinion, anyway) is to preserve fermenter volume, which could be a problem for some depending on fermenter size and the amount of trub the wort contains, though a blow off rig should make it a moot point even if fermenter space it tight. Clarity, taste, or the desire to reuse yeast will not be negatively impacted by cloudy wort.

 

[passedpawn]

Clear wort going from BK to fermenter is a waste of time and energy. The only argument for doing it that really has any validity (in my opinion, anyway) is to preserve fermenter volume, which could be a problem for some depending on fermenter size and the amount of trub the wort contains, though a blow off rig should make it a moot point even if fermenter space it tight. Clarity, taste, or the desire to reuse yeast will not be negatively impacted by cloudy wort.

What do you think is the effect of a lot of late hop additions making it into the fermentor?

I make hop-bursted IPAs, where a ton of hop pellets go into the boil kettle in the last 15 minutes, much of them at 1m. I've been working on my whirlpool techniques to keep them from all ending up in the fermentors. FYI, I don't use any type of hop sack (used to, but attempting to eliminate).

 

[SmokeyMcBong]

What do you think is the effect of a lot of late hop additions making it into the fermentor?.

My guess would be just a loss of fermenter volume. Unless you're leaving your beer in primary for a very long time. In that case you might end up a little vegital or grassy but even that's not guaranteed...

 

[Radboud]

Brülosophy tested this: http://brulosophy.com/2015/03/22/the-impact-of-kettle-trub-part-2-exbeeriment-results/

 

[LLBeanJ]

What do you think is the effect of a lot of late hop additions making it into the fermentor?

I make hop-bursted IPAs, where a ton of hop pellets go into the boil kettle in the last 15 minutes, much of them at 1m. I've been working on my whirlpool techniques to keep them from all ending up in the fermentors. FYI, I don't use any type of hop sack (used to, but attempting to eliminate).

Hopefully, even more hop flavor and aroma, since that's the point of the late additions. I don't use hop sacks in the boil either and I always dump the whole mess into the fermenter. I think my IPAs turn out as good as any, but I also keg my brews when they're done, which is usually at around 10-14 days. I've also direct-pitched yeast slurry from those brews into one or more subsequent brews with no noticeable (to me, at least) undesirable effects.

 

[passedpawn]

Hopefully, even more hop flavor and aroma, since that's the point of the late additions. I don't use hop sacks in the boil either and I always dump the whole mess into the fermenter. I think my IPAs turn out as good as any, but I also keg my brews when they're done, which is usually at around 10-14 days. I've also direct-pitched yeast slurry from those brews into one or more subsequent brews with no noticeable (to me, at least) undesirable effects.

My setup/schedule also. I've just started freeballing the hops into the kettle, so I don't have answers yet. My concern was not hop flavor or aroma (more is better ), but increased bitterness or any other negative flavor. I know that hop oils are isomerized quickly by heat, but even 65F is some amount of heat, and with 2 weeks I didn't know if more oils got isomerized or not.

With an IPA, it's not really a concern, but I don't want to turn a pale ale into an IPA if the late hop additions continue to add bitterness in the fermentor.

 

[ruger988]

My setup/schedule also. I've just started freeballing the hops into the kettle, so I don't have answers yet. My concern was not hop flavor or aroma (more is better ), but increased bitterness or any other negative flavor. I know that hop oils are isomerized quickly by heat, but even 65F is some amount of heat, and with 2 weeks I didn't know if more oils got isomerized or not.

With an IPA, it's not really a concern, but I don't want to turn a pale ale into an IPA if the late hop additions continue to add bitterness in the fermentor.

I run the pilot program at a local micro brewery and we recently did a tst with our flagship IPA. Brewed it on our 20bbl system as usual, then shipped 4bbls of pre-boil wort over to my house. Boiled that down EXACTLY as we do usually with the exact same hops and amounts of hops. Only thing we changed was we removed the whirlpool addition and added it to the dry hop.

You would not believe the difference in bitterness. Its a much juicy, cleaner hop profile this way. I know it doesn't directly answer of adding bitterness in the fermenter with late additions, but it certainly proves that late additions (even whirlpool additions) can add quite a bit of bitterness during knockout. FWIW, on that system, wort is typically cooled and in the fermenter within 45-50 minutes of flameout.

 

[McKnuckle]

As mentioned, attempting to control cold break is futile and pointless, so it should just be included with the wort. It settles to nothing even though it always looks overwhelming at first.

I keep all bittering and flavor hops in a sack, which gets removed at flameout. However, I add any flameout/hopstand additions directly to the kettle. I employ a strainer to keep those hops out of the fermenter. Normally you only need the strainer at the very end of the transfer, since the hops are heavier than everything else, and get sucked up (or poured) last.

 

[Smellyglove]

If you're harvesting yeast you'd want as little trub in the fermenter as possible. It might be lack of calcium in your wort.

 

[LLBeanJ]

My setup/schedule also. I've just started freeballing the hops into the kettle, so I don't have answers yet. My concern was not hop flavor or aroma (more is better ), but increased bitterness or any other negative flavor. I know that hop oils are isomerized quickly by heat, but even 65F is some amount of heat, and with 2 weeks I didn't know if more oils got isomerized or not.

With an IPA, it's not really a concern, but I don't want to turn a pale ale into an IPA if the late hop additions continue to add bitterness in the fermentor.

My understanding was that isomerization of hops oils stops once the wort drops below a certain temp. I didn't know off-hand what that temp was, so I just did a quick web search and according to this very informative BYO article on hop stands, it's around 175°F. Below that temp, there will be no further bitterness extracted, which is why we can dry hop the absolute shizz out a finished beer and it doesn't affect the bitterness. Likewise, prolonged exposure to hops while fermenting shouldn't affect the bitterness either.

 

[LLBeanJ]

If you're harvesting yeast you'd want as little trub in the fermenter as possible.

Theoretically, this makes sense, but my real-world results tell me it doesn't matter how much trub is in the fermenter when you harvest it.

The only time I harvest from the fermenter is when I'm going to direct-pitch the slurry into another batch, which I do with about half the batches I brew. If I want the cleanest yeast possible, say for my yeast bank, I'll take it from a starter instead. If you want clean, nearly trub-free yeast from a fermenter harvest, you can take a small amount of the trubby slurry (1-2 TBSP) and grow up a starter from it, which will give you a much higher % of yeast to trub than what you started with.

 

[Smellyglove]

Theoretically, this makes sense, but my real-world results tell me it doesn't matter how much trub is in the fermenter when you harvest it.

The only time I harvest from the fermenter is when I'm going to direct-pitch the slurry into another batch, which I do with about half the batches I brew. If I want the cleanest yeast possible, say for my yeast bank, I'll take it from a starter instead. If you want clean, nearly trub-free yeast from a fermenter harvest, you can take a small amount of the trubby slurry (1-2 TBSP) and grow up a starter from it, which will give you a much higher % of yeast to trub than what you started with.

Yes. That's true. For me it's just easier to ballpark (grossly) how much yeast I have on hand when it's pretty clean. Harvest, and store until repitch.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

Only thing we changed was we removed the whirlpool addition and added it to the dry hop.

You would not believe the difference in bitterness. Its a much juicy, cleaner hop profile this way.

So your saying Zero FO or whirlpool additions and a ton of dry hops. That goes against the norm even for a NE style brew. Its common practice not to go over 1 oz per gallon dry hop at the most.
How much did you dry hop and what was the entire hop schedule and amount scaled to 5 gallon batches?

 

[vance]

What exactly is whirlpooling?

 

[McKnuckle]

It's important to remember that pro breweries take a long time to whirlpool, cool, and pump wort to the FV. The wort stays very hot and definitely extracts significant bitterness from these late hops. On the homebrew scale, we can easily chill to 175F in 2 minutes, then add FO hops. We get aroma and flavor and minimal/no bitterness. This is one of those areas where we shouldn't extrapolate from what happens in a big brewery.

 

[ruger988]

So your saying Zero FO or whirlpool additions and a ton of dry hops. That goes against the norm even for a NE style brew. Its common practice not to go over 1 oz per gallon dry hop at the most.
How much did you dry hop and what was the entire hop schedule and amount scaled to 5 gallon batches?

We used 0 FO hops, correct. we were somewhere in the 3# per BBL range all said and done, I can get exact numbers at a later date.

It's important to remember that pro breweries take a long time to whirlpool, cool, and pump wort to the FV. The wort stays very hot and definitely extracts significant bitterness from these late hops. On the homebrew scale, we can easily chill to 175F in 2 minutes, then add FO hops. We get aroma and flavor and minimal/no bitterness. This is one of those areas where we shouldn't extrapolate from what happens in a big brewery.

Very true, which is why I made a point of saying that I have my wort chilled and in the fermenter with 45 minutes of FO. I only brought this up since people mentioned leaving their brew sitting for 30-60 or more minutes prior to chilling earlier in the thread.