Cocoa powder to lactose ratio

[Velnerj]

I'm planning to brew a chocolate stout and decided to go with cocoa powder in the boil along with some lactose to sweeten it a bit.

I'm shooting for a more than subtle but not overpowering chocolate flavor. I've actually never used lactose or cocoa powder.

So here's my question, what ratio should the cocoa powder to lactose be? Right now I have a 2-1 ratio in favor of the lactose.

I brew 4 gallon (16l) batches and have planned 300g lactose and 150g cocoa powder. Would you recommend adjusting this?

Ps I'm considering also adding cocoa nibs (or tincture) in the fermenter after vigorous fermentation.

Thanks!

 

[RPh_Guy]

What does the ratio of cocoa to lactose have to do with anything?
It's like asking what yeast to hops ratio to use.

Figure out how much you want of each ingredient, separately.

 

[Velnerj]

The ratio is playing with the bitterness that cocoa brings and balancing that out with sweetness.

I figured it's like making hot chocolate. When I do this at home I mix a 2-1 ratio of powdered sugar to cocoa powder.

I guess what I'm asking is how much sweetness does lactose sugar bring to a beer to offset bitterness picked up by the cocoa powder.

 

[RPh_Guy]

The beer additionally has malt for sweetness and hops for bittering, so it's not as simple as hot cocoa.

I'd suggest to start with a known recipe. Adjust future brews to your taste.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/sweet-chocolate-milk-stout.334736/

Cheers

 

[Velnerj]

Yep I've definitely checked out that recipe. The problem is he uses 1 cup of cocoa powder which isn't very precise... But perhaps I'm splitting hairs there. In his recipe its a 4-1 ratio in favor of lactose...

I understand the balance between malt sweetness and hop bitterness, but I'm unsure of how cocoa and lactose will interfere with that.

Obviously with a stout you'd want to be malt forward. In a chocolate stout I'd like to lean toward sweet milk chocolate flavor rather than a dark (bitter) chocolate flavor (if that makes sense). So I'm trying to figure out what these two ingredients bring and how to balance them out properly.

I appreciate the help though! Do you have any experience using lactose sugar (in any style)? How much perceived sweetness does it add?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Yes stouts are malty, but malty and sweet aren't the same thing (related, but not interchangeable). It's not uncommon for stouts to be on the bitter side (as opposed to sweet), just depends what you want. Some are incredibly bitter.
I'm sure you already understand all that, just explaining for clarity.
...

I'll admit I don't like stout/porters but my wife loves them so I sample them frequently and brew them occasionally. The peanut butter / blackberry / base porter I most recently brewed used 1lb of lactose in 5 gal (FG 1.018, 43 IBU, 6.6% ABV). I think it tastes fairly balanced for the general style. In the same beer with cocoa I'd probably (just guessing, I've never used cocoa) reduce the IBU to around 30-35 to keep the same balance, especially if I wanted more of a milk chocolate rather than dark chocolate.

You are free to add both cocoa and lactose after fermentation, so if you want to be exact about the flavors, just run some tasting trials on the fermented stout.

 

[Velnerj]

Yes stouts are malty, but malty and sweet aren't the same thing (related, but not interchangeable). It's not uncommon for stouts to be on the bitter side (as opposed to sweet), just depends what you want. Some are incredibly bitter.
I'm sure you already understand all that, just explaining for clarity.
...

I'll admit I don't like stout/porters but my wife loves them so I sample them frequently and brew them occasionally. The peanut butter / blackberry / base porter I most recently brewed used 1lb of lactose in 5 gal (FG 1.018, 43 IBU, 6.6% ABV). I think it tastes fairly balanced for the general style. In the same beer with cocoa I'd probably (just guessing, I've never used cocoa) reduce the IBU to around 30-35 to keep the same balance, especially if I wanted more of a milk chocolate rather than dark chocolate.

You are free to add both cocoa and lactose after fermentation, so if you want to be exact about the flavors, just run some tasting trials on the fermented stout.

It's a good idea to experiment post fermentation. I may try that but I think I'm also going to go ahead and add some to the boil as well just to start with a base line.