Cloudy Star San - Feedback from Five Star

[ncbrewer]

Cloudy Star San solution is a subject that has come up in many podcasts, and in many HBT threads. I thought I would pass along some recent information from Five Star Chemicals.

When my local water department changed water source and treatment, my Star San started turning cloudy as soon as it was mixed. I emailed Five Star about this. These are some of the statements from Rebecca Ozirsky:

- “The cloudiness you are experiencing is completely normal. It is just the acids in Starsan reacting to the minerals in the water. It is still going to be completely safe and fine to use.”

- “The alkalinity will raise the pH, however it is the minerals in the water reacting to Starsan, not the alkalinity. The phos and DDBSA in the Starsan should be enough to keep the pH below 3.5.”

- My question: “Being cloudy, will this Star San solution still last a week or so in a sealed container?”

- “There is no need to worry about the cloudiness. Per my last email, the acids are just reacting to the minerals and causing it to cloud up. It is completely fine and safe to use.”

Some of the podcasts I've listened to in the past were a little vague on some points, and sometimes seemed contradictory. I'm hoping that my recent contact resolves some of the issues and that it's the very latest info.

 

[homebrewer_99]

Mine is cloudy too. A week? I make up a new 5 gallon batch every month or so, sometimes 3 months. Just test the ph. As long as it tests good it's good.

 

[cubalz]

Just follow homebrewer 99's advice. Mine gets cloudy almost immediately too and I use it until the pH tests tell me not to.

 

[mredge73]

Mix with RO water and it won't go cloudy, mine stays clear for over a year stored in a spare keg.
RO water is $1 for 5 gallons around here.

 

[ncbrewer]

Yes, pH is the real indicator. But I don't plan on getting a pH meter, and I've read many negative things about accuracy of pH strips (and I might have a problem with color perception because it's always been hard to read the strips). I normally make up some Star San for bottling, and then use it again a few days later on brew day. Five Star's recent emails gave me confidence that the cloudiness doesn't hurt anything, and use and reuse is fine. Never had to worry about it before because our old water supply was extremely soft.

 

[ZmannR2]

Use distilled water only and you'll never have a problem

 

[homebrewer_99]

Use distilled water only and you'll never have a problem

The only thing distilled at my house is store-bought liquor.

 

[seatazzz]

I keep my Starsan in a sealed bucket in the garage and I've never had a problem with cloudiness. I replace it when it gets low or when someone who shall remain nameless but looks like me in the mirror gets something nasty in it. I don't have a pH meter but I do make the solution a bit stronger than recommended, hasn't hurt anything yet.

 

[ncbrewer]

I don't have a pH meter but I do make the solution a bit stronger than recommended, hasn't hurt anything yet.

Charlie Talley said in a podcast that Star San can be made up a little stronger than the directions call for with no problem. Unfortunately he didn't say how much stronger, but at least this might give you some confidence in your method.

 

[ale_man]

My experience was different. Long story short: i started getting beers that would turn sort if ropy and become diacetyl bombs. At a homebrew group meeting i was enlightened to the symptoms of Pedicoccus by a pro brewer in our club. It came from a group brew project and a bourbon barrel that had been allowed to go dry between projects. It was then put through my draft system. I thought i was sanitizing well It eventually got into everything that passed through the initial bucket used to transfer the group project infected beer. I had about 5 batches that just went to crap. My son gave me grief and told me i better get a handle on it because my beer was tasting horrible. He said he was only drinking it because it was free and he still got a buzz. LOL!!! At the club meeting where I learned I had Pedicoccus, I was asked what i used to sanitize. “Star San”. Is it clear or cloudy when mixed with water? “Cloudy”. Its not effective due to your hard water. (Well water). I cleaned everything throughout my brewery, then soaked it in IO (idophor). I now use RO water with Star San and all is well.
I also was told that Brett would have had a wonderful effect on the Pedicoccus beers.

 

[hawkbox]

That honestly sounds like two different issues, you probably needed to be more thorough the starsan was just something they fixated on. My starsan goes cloudy almost immediately and have never given me any trouble.

 

[killian]

I’ve never heard that it was less effective when cloudy, I have heard that it shouldn’t be used for more than 24 hours if it’s cloudy. I generally go by pH.

 

[PastorofMuppets]

I have spray bottle star San made with distilled water from 2014 no problem. I also have mixed in distilled water gallon jugs from that old... No problem

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw there are definitely plastics that a standard Star San solution will eat up over time. For example the threads on the plastic spigot I use on my Star San reservoir bucket will last for about 3 years of constant exposure before the nylon lock nut no longer has any "lock" as the spigot threads receded. The lock nut, otoh, suffers no apparent thinning.

The first time this reached complete failure mode the whole bucket drained across my shop floor, under the wall separating my shop from our garage, and ended up in the driveway, before I even noticed...

Cheers!

 

[PastorofMuppets]

I cant see any reason to keep that much on hand. Spray bottle for odds and ends that come up and make up enough to sanitize what i need done on a brew day, which isnt much. One large bottle lasts for freaking ever.

 

[day_trippr]

Ok, let us know how well purging a keg works with just a spray bottle of Star San...

Cheers!

 

[FunkedOut]

My head gets cloudy sometimes. Is it the minerals?

 

[PastorofMuppets]

im sure it can work fine. I dont want to argue. Everybody has their method. No one needs gallons of star san ready made at all times but thats just my opinion. I dont really care
do whatever. Cheers

 

[Black Island Brewer]

im sure it can work fine. I dont want to argue. Everybody has their method. No one needs gallons of star san ready made at all times but thats just my opinion. I dont really care
do whatever. Cheers

LMAO! You don't want to argue, but then you do? At any given time I have as much as 10 gallons ready made. Five in my bucket that I use for filling spray bottles, filling my vinator, pouring into carboys, etc, and five in a corny that I'll push out into another corny when I'm purging to keg.

 

[day_trippr]

Yeah, that was really weak. I expect better on HBT

Seriously, how would one purge kegs without a large enough volume of solution at hand?
And once said volume of solution has been created (using distilled water, fwiw) why not keep it on hand for reuse?

I brew every 2-3 weeks and I routinely keep ~6 gallons of mix on hand for months so it's there when I need it for purging kegs. When it becomes less then crystal-clear I dump it and whip up another batch...

Cheers!

 

[ale_man]

@hawkbox
Perhaps. I have definitely stepped back up to obsessive on sanitation. I did come across this in my further investigation.
Thanks for the insight. Semper Cervisium!

 

[ncbrewer]

@hawkbox
Perhaps. I have definitely stepped back up to obsessive on sanitation. I did come across this in my further investigation.
Thanks for the insight. Semper Cervisium!

Interesting post by Martin Brungard. The slimy layer of precipitate might well be something to be concerned with, especially considering the source of the statement. Maybe this issue isn't really settled.

 

[homebrewer_99]

I keep a 5 gallon batch of StarSan on hand for things other than brewing. For instance, I also smoke meat. It's great to use on the table and counter prior to, and after, prepping the meat, especially pork and chicken.

When I sanitize a keg I use my auto-siphon to transfer some SS to it. Then I seal it and rock it back and forth to make sure it get everywhere. Doing it this way I'm also sanitizing the auto-siphon for racking the beer into the keg. If I'm sanitizing a primary I just dump the entire bucket into it and wash the foam up along the top sides. For a bottling bucket I'll run some through the cane and filler. Too easy.

If I get a bit messy and I plan on making a new batch of SS I'll use some of the old SS and mop the floor with it before dumping it all out.

FWIW, I use about 12-15 gallons of water during chilling. I save the HOT water for clean up and rest for the laundry. If the laundry is already done then the 2 buckets are used to water the garden. Why waste money?

EDIT: I forgot to mention, I mix mine at normal strength. When the water starts evaporating it will automatically begin concentrating the StarSan mix in the process.

 

[kh54s10]

@hawkbox
Perhaps. I have definitely stepped back up to obsessive on sanitation. I did come across this in my further investigation.
Thanks for the insight. Semper Cervisium!

The article linked does not match my experience. I had really good water when I lived in Rhode Island. The Starsan never went cloudy. I had a 5 gallon water bottle that I just topped up constantly. In six years it never went dry. I have since moved to Florida and the Starsan mixes cloudy. I check the pH with strips. When in RI the Starsan left a slippery film as was described for cloudy Starsan. In FL the Starsan also leaves a slippery film. But it is no different. 6 3/4 years and 1 infected bottle. But that bottle tasted good.

 

[BroStefan]

Yes, pH is the real indicator. But I don't plan on getting a pH meter, and I've read many negative things about accuracy of pH strips (and I might have a problem with color perception because it's always been hard to read the strips). I normally make up some Star San for bottling, and then use it again a few days later on brew day. Five Star's recent emails gave me confidence that the cloudiness doesn't hurt anything, and use and reuse is fine. Never had to worry about it before because our old water supply was extremely soft.

Ph strips are plenty accurate for this purpose.

I make Starsan 2.5 gal at a time. I’ve had some over 3 months old and Ph has been well under limit.

On the other hand mix it with RO and it stays brilliantly clear. Very pretty.

 

[hawkbox]

I've noticed the slimy feeling too, not entirely sure where that comes from. I try not to leave anything soaking in it to long anymore. Also it really blackens the metal bits on some of the stuff I use.

 

[Bassman2003]

Cloudy Star San solution is a subject that has come up in many podcasts, and in many HBT threads. I thought I would pass along some recent information from Five Star Chemicals.

When my local water department changed water source and treatment, my Star San started turning cloudy as soon as it was mixed. I emailed Five Star about this. These are some of the statements from Rebecca Ozirsky:

- “The cloudiness you are experiencing is completely normal. It is just the acids in Starsan reacting to the minerals in the water. It is still going to be completely safe and fine to use.”

- “The alkalinity will raise the pH, however it is the minerals in the water reacting to Starsan, not the alkalinity. The phos and DDBSA in the Starsan should be enough to keep the pH below 3.5.”

- My question: “Being cloudy, will this Star San solution still last a week or so in a sealed container?”

- “There is no need to worry about the cloudiness. Per my last email, the acids are just reacting to the minerals and causing it to cloud up. It is completely fine and safe to use.”

Some of the podcasts I've listened to in the past were a little vague on some points, and sometimes seemed contradictory. I'm hoping that my recent contact resolves some of the issues and that it's the very latest info.

I think it is great to contact the manufacturer to get the real scoop but I do not think she exactly answered your question. Sure, it might get cloudy right away and still be viable but she did not tell you that keeping it month in that state would retain viability. They want to sell more solution so maybe they do not encourage storage but I would not take this communication as support for long term cloudy storage.

My routine is to mix a new batch of Star-San during each brew session. I run it through my system and store it in a 5 gallon bucket. I use this stored solution for the keg that will be used for that brew. Then make a new batch for the next brew. Sanitation is not something worth skimping on. I have done this in the past and it manifests just as mentioned earlier, in pseudo messed up beers. I do keep a gallon of distilled-mixed Star San that I add to every once and a while for starters. It stays clear and all is well.

There is a good podcast from the Brewing Network from way back with a guy from Five Star who answered a lot of questions about the product including storage. Kind of like asking Chris White about yeast ranching, against their company's interest but the guy was very open and informative.

 

[NTexBrewer]

Not trying to rehash the cloudy not cloudy Starsan argument but here is an interesting phenomenon. I was out of RO water so I used tap water to sanitize my fermentation equipment on brew day. The solution turned cloudy. Filled the air locks with cloudy Starsan. Once fermentation started and CO2 bubbled through the airlock it turned the solution clear again.

 

[lump42]

Not trying to rehash the cloudy not cloudy Starsan argument but here is an interesting phenomenon. I was out of RO water so I used tap water to sanitize my fermentation equipment on brew day. The solution turned cloudy. Filled the air locks with cloudy Starsan. Once fermentation started and CO2 bubbled through the airlock it turned the solution clear again.

Happens to me every time. I attribute it to the CO2 going into solution and lowering pH, which would make the calcium precipitate to re-dissolve.

 

[RPh_Guy]

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View attachment 670169


Not trying to rehash the cloudy not cloudy Starsan argument but here is an interesting phenomenon. I was out of RO water so I used tap water to sanitize my fermentation equipment on brew day. The solution turned cloudy. Filled the air locks with cloudy Starsan. Once fermentation started and CO2 bubbled through the airlock it turned the solution clear again.

The aqueous CO2 creates some carbonic acid, which helps dissolve the precipitated phosphate salts that are the source of the cloudiness.