Closed system racking to keg

[dsniegocki]

Been trying a new "closed system" for racking to a keg, and just wanted to share as I'm thrilled with the results. The closed system minimizes any chance for oxygen contact, and keeps things super simple.

I benefit from having a sampling/racking valve at the bottom of my SS fermenter, but I've also done this from carboys that I've dry-hopped in.

I keep handy two pieces of siphoning tube; one with a gas ball lock, the other with a liquid ball lock. When racking, I first flood the keg with CO2, then seal the keg lid. I attach the two ball locks, then connect the liquid line (the "out" on the keg) to the valve on the SS fermenter (or to the siphon for a carboy). I then attach the gas line (the "in" on the keg) to the blowoff connector on my fermenter (or slide it in alongside the siphon into the carboy).

When the transfer begins, the CO2 in the keg is replaced with beer, and flows from the keg into the fermenter. This maintains CO2 at all times in the fermenter (instead of flowing ambient air on top of the beer). The dip tube in the keg takes the place of a racking cane, so that's one less piece of gear to clean/sanitize prior to racking. When transfer is complete, simply disconnect the two ball locks and you're all set.

Minimal gear, no drips, and no chance of air contacting the beer. Just one piece of hose to clean. See picture attached of kegging an Irish Red using this technique.

Would love to hear from anyone else that does something similar, and possible improvements I could make to my process.

Cheers!

 

[hobomoto]

Genius.

Have not seen this.

I just used my co2 tank to do an o2 free transfer from my carboy to my keg for the first time on my last batch. While that was awesome, this is much safer and recycles the CO2 you used to purge your keg.

Don't think this would be too hard to rig up to an orange carboy cap.

 

[robopp]

I think my only comment is how are you purging the keg before transfer? If you're filling the keg entirely with starsan and pushing it out with CO2 then you're truly doing a closed transfer with no O2 exposure. If not, it would be difficult to purge the keg of O2 before the transfer.

Cool idea though!

 

[D-Train]

Very nice. I've been doing closed transfers with a carboy the same way as hobomoto, but I'm thinking you could just use the gas tank to start the siphon, and then switch the gas over to the keg.

 

[SleepyCreekBrews]

How do you know when the keg is full?

 

[hobomoto]

D-train, I was thinking the same thing or the FlyGuy T-siphon starter seems like it would work as well... just learned about that too.

 

[dsniegocki]

I think my only comment is how are you purging the keg before transfer? If you're filling the keg entirely with starsan and pushing it out with CO2 then you're truly doing a closed transfer with no O2 exposure. If not, it would be difficult to purge the keg of O2 before the transfer.

Cool idea though!

Usually I'm just flooding it with CO2 by attaching one of my gas lines to the IN, and leaving the keg lid off, with the idea that the heavier CO2 will push out the ambient air... although I do sometimes do as you suggest as a way of doing a rough clean-out of my serving line. I agree with you, your suggestion is a more thorough "purge", and I think I'll look to doing that more often going forward. Thx!

 

[dsniegocki]

Very nice. I've been doing closed transfers with a carboy the same way as hobomoto, but I'm thinking you could just use the gas tank to start the siphon, and then switch the gas over to the keg.

Didn't think of that for the carboy, as I'm usually gravity fed with the SS fermenter valve. Thx for the idea with the gas tank, I'll try that next time.

 

[dsniegocki]

How do you know when the keg is full?

I've never really had a situation where I've had much more than 5 gallons in the SS fermenter to rack, so it's not been much of an issue - I just let it run until it stops. When using the carboy, it's not too difficult to visualize when 5 gallons have gone through.

 

[fatherdan]

for 5 gallon batches does this make any difference at all? will my beer taste any different just siphoning from bucket to keg? Is beer that sensitive?

 

[Jacinthebox]

I use a closed set up for kegging, in an effort to reduce exposure to o2. Works great

 

[dsniegocki]

for 5 gallon batches does this make any difference at all? will my beer taste any different just siphoning from bucket to keg? Is beer that sensitive?

Exposure to O2 can absolutely make a difference in the taste. It's the reason hand-pumped-serving kegs taste like crap the next day after you tap them, you've exposed the beer to oxygen. I've done the method you are describing, with a racking cane etc, and flooded the keg with CO2 first... but found that for me, I still end up splooshing the beer around more than I'd like. The method above, for me, reduces the exposure to nothing, and has the added benefit that I don't have a racking cane to clean. That part may not seem like much, but I'm a fan of removing extra equipment (that I have to clean and sanitize) from the process wherever possible.

 

[303Dan]

Been trying a new "closed system" for racking to a keg, and just wanted to share as I'm thrilled with the results. The closed system minimizes any chance for oxygen contact, and keeps things super simple.

I benefit from having a sampling/racking valve at the bottom of my SS fermenter, but I've also done this from carboys that I've dry-hopped in.

I keep handy two pieces of siphoning tube; one with a gas ball lock, the other with a liquid ball lock. When racking, I first flood the keg with CO2, then seal the keg lid. I attach the two ball locks, then connect the liquid line (the "out" on the keg) to the valve on the SS fermenter (or to the siphon for a carboy). I then attach the gas line (the "in" on the keg) to the blowoff connector on my fermenter (or slide it in alongside the siphon into the carboy).

When the transfer begins, the CO2 in the keg is replaced with beer, and flows from the keg into the fermenter. This maintains CO2 at all times in the fermenter (instead of flowing ambient air on top of the beer). The dip tube in the keg takes the place of a racking cane, so that's one less piece of gear to clean/sanitize prior to racking. When transfer is complete, simply disconnect the two ball locks and you're all set.

Minimal gear, no drips, and no chance of air contacting the beer. Just one piece of hose to clean. See picture attached of kegging an Irish Red using this technique.

Would love to hear from anyone else that does something similar, and possible improvements I could make to my process.

Cheers!

I've been kicking around the idea of doing something similar to this. A few questions for you:

SSbrewtech says that the Brew Bucket is not meant to do transfers under pressure. I know you're not hooking up a high pressure source directly, but what type of pressure is being released to your sealed Brew Bucket when you hook up the gas line from your keg? How many psi are you putting into the empty keg before you transfer? Does the Brew Bucket show any ill effects during or after the process (lid bowing out, clamps stressing or bending, etc)?

 

[dsniegocki]

I've been kicking around the idea of doing something similar to this. A few questions for you:

SSbrewtech says that the Brew Bucket is not meant to do transfers under pressure. I know you're not hooking up a high pressure source directly, but what type of pressure is being released to your sealed Brew Bucket when you hook up the gas line from your keg? How many psi are you putting into the empty keg before you transfer? Does the Brew Bucket show any ill effects during or after the process (lid bowing out, clamps stressing or bending, etc)?

There is zero pressure involved. If I am purging in the manner robopp suggested, I can use the pressure release valve to remove any pressure in the keg before I begin. A non-pressurized volume of CO2 will then exist in the keg. The (heavier) beer entering the keg via gravity is enough to push the (lighter) CO2 out of the keg, and into the brew bucket... so no actual standing pressure needs to exist in the keg prior to transfer.

 

[303Dan]

There is zero pressure involved. If I am purging in the manner robopp suggested, I can use the pressure release valve to remove any pressure in the keg before I begin. A non-pressurized volume of CO2 will then exist in the keg. The (heavier) beer entering the keg via gravity is enough to push the (lighter) CO2 out of the keg, and into the brew bucket... so no actual standing pressure needs to exist in the keg prior to transfer.

Ahh, okay, you're opening the PRV. Sorry, I missed that part, I need to read more carefully. So it's not a completely closed process. O2 can still blend with the CO2 left in the keg during transfer and also make its way to the fermenter headspace, albeit I'm sure a small amount.

Not trying to nitpick, I just misunderstood what you were doing. Your process is definitely a big improvement on normal gravity fed transfers with the keg lid open. And especially if you purge again afterwards, I can see this being a very effective method.

Thanks!

 

[jddevinn]

Usually I'm just flooding it with CO2 by attaching one of my gas lines to the IN, and leaving the keg lid off, with the idea that the heavier CO2 will push out the ambient air... although I do sometimes do as you suggest as a way of doing a rough clean-out of my serving line. I agree with you, your suggestion is a more thorough "purge", and I think I'll look to doing that more often going forward. Thx!

OK.... I hate to be the one that tells you this. The fact that CO2 is heavier than air does not affect its diffusion into air. Putting CO2 into the bottom of a sealed keg will result in a mixture of CO2 and air coming out of the top.

Purging the keg with pressure works the same way. You will need more than 5 purges to get below 10% air content no matter what (reasonable) pressure that is used due to the gases diffusing into each other quickly.

To completely purge the keg you must fill it with something that will not diffuse with CO2 and push that out. I fill the kegs with StarSan then push the StarSan solution to another keg, leaving a sanitized purged keg.

To close loop the system I pressure transfer into the purged keg. I do two kegs at once, connecting the transfer equipment full of starsan and push the StarSan out with CO2. My "vents" are lines hooked to quick disconnects and placed under StarSan. 100% closed loop.

 

[PlexVector]

OK.... I hate to be the one that tells you this. The fact that CO2 is heavier than air does not affect its diffusion into air. Putting CO2 into the bottom of a sealed keg will result in a mixture of CO2 and air coming out of the top.

Purging the keg with pressure works the same way. You will need more than 5 purges to get below 10% air content no matter what (reasonable) pressure that is used due to the gases diffusing into each other quickly.

To completely purge the keg you must fill it with something that will not diffuse with CO2 and push that out. I fill the kegs with StarSan then push the StarSan solution to another keg, leaving a sanitized purged keg.

To close loop the system I pressure transfer into the purged keg. I do two kegs at once, connecting the transfer equipment full of starsan and push the StarSan out with CO2. My "vents" are lines hooked to quick disconnects and placed under StarSan. 100% closed loop.

I'm assuming that the purge cycle variable in that graph is based on a small head space...?

 

[jddevinn]

I'm assuming that the purge cycle variable in that graph is based on a small head space...?

The values are % of original remaining it is not dependent on size. Either an empty keg or headspace above the beer are the same. In this instance I was referring to an empty keg.

 

[dsniegocki]

OK.... I hate to be the one that tells you this. The fact that CO2 is heavier than air does not affect its diffusion into air. Putting CO2 into the bottom of a sealed keg will result in a mixture of CO2 and air coming out of the top.

Purging the keg with pressure works the same way. You will need more than 5 purges to get below 10% air content no matter what (reasonable) pressure that is used due to the gases diffusing into each other quickly.

To completely purge the keg you must fill it with something that will not diffuse with CO2 and push that out. I fill the kegs with StarSan then push the StarSan solution to another keg, leaving a sanitized purged keg.

To close loop the system I pressure transfer into the purged keg. I do two kegs at once, connecting the transfer equipment full of starsan and push the StarSan out with CO2. My "vents" are lines hooked to quick disconnects and placed under StarSan. 100% closed loop.

No, I am glad you are telling me this... this is the main reason I posted, to help me improve as a brewer. robopp also suggested earlier in the thread about purging starsan (or OneStep, in my case) from the keg with CO2 as being the proper way to ensure a purged keg. I have done this on occasion, but thought my shortcut was good enough. I'll be using your method to purge going forward, and thanks!!

 

[dsniegocki]

Ahh, okay, you're opening the PRV. Sorry, I missed that part, I need to read more carefully. So it's not a completely closed process. O2 can still blend with the CO2 left in the keg during transfer and also make its way to the fermenter headspace, albeit I'm sure a small amount.

Not trying to nitpick, I just misunderstood what you were doing. Your process is definitely a big improvement on normal gravity fed transfers with the keg lid open. And especially if you purge again afterwards, I can see this being a very effective method.

Thanks!

You didn't miss anything, I didn't put that part in the initial post. I'll be tweaking my purge process going forward due to some excellent suggestions here.

 

[jddevinn]

No, I am glad you are telling me this... this is the main reason I posted, to help me improve as a brewer. robopp also suggested earlier in the thread about purging starsan (or OneStep, in my case) from the keg with CO2 as being the proper way to ensure a purged keg. I have done this on occasion, but thought my shortcut was good enough. I'll be using your method to purge going forward, and thanks!!

No problem. I don't think the CO2 "blanket" myth is ever going to go away. The good thing about sanitizer in the keg is it tends to last about forever, and you actually use less CO2 this way than with a multiple purge method.

 

[pvpeacock]

for 5 gallon batches does this make any difference at all? will my beer taste any different just siphoning from bucket to keg? Is beer that sensitive?

I also question whether this is overkill. When I transfer to a keg from my SS Chronical I just open the keg top, attach a hose from the racking port to the bottom of the keg and let it drain. I start slow to limit any splashing, but once there is enough beer in the bottom of the keg, I let it rip without any splashing. It's hard to imagine that is enough exposure to oxygen to adversely affect the beer, particularly when I purge the keg headspace with CO2 immediately afterward. I may be completely wrong, but I just don't think I have ever had a oxygen problem with my kegging process.

 

[jddevinn]

I also question whether this is overkill. When I transfer to a keg from my SS Chronical I just open the keg top, attach a hose from the racking port to the bottom of the keg and let it drain. I start slow to limit any splashing, but once there is enough beer in the bottom of the keg, I let it rip without any splashing. It's hard to imagine that is enough exposure to oxygen to adversely affect the beer, particularly when I purge the keg headspace with CO2 immediately afterward. I may be completely wrong, but I just don't think I have ever had a oxygen problem with my kegging process.

Most professional sources I find say less than 1-2ppm of air is optimal. That's not a lot.

Copying from a post I made in another thread
For reference, Roughly 1ml of air in a 300ml bottle will give an oxygen content of 1ppm, which is probably enough to oxidize all the reductones present in a light lager beer. [Brewing Science and practice] converting and expanding to batch size, this is equivalent to ~4 cubic inches of air for a 5 gallon batch.

 

[doug293cz]

The values are % of original remaining it is not dependent on size. Either an empty keg or headspace above the beer are the same. In this instance I was referring to an empty keg.

Correct (I am the source of the charts.) I have updated those charts to show actual O2 ppm in the headspace.





Brew on

 

[jddevinn]

Correct (I am the source of the charts.) I have updated those charts to show actual O2 ppm in the headspace.

View attachment 343159

View attachment 343160

Brew on

This time I'll have to make sure to save the source in the filename so I can credit you

So we are looking at at least 12+ purges to get to less than 1ppm!

 

[doug293cz]

Most professional sources I find say less than 1-2ppm of air is optimal. That's not a lot.

Copying from a post I made in another thread
For reference, Roughly 1ml of air in a 300ml bottle will give an oxygen content of 1ppm, which is probably enough to oxidize all the reductones present in a light lager beer. [Brewing Science and practice] converting and expanding to batch size, this is equivalent to ~4 cubic inches of air for a 5 gallon batch.

The best source I have found talks about "Total Packaged Oxygen" (TPO), and the targets for TPO are under 0.2 ppm (200 ppb.) Check out the following, especially page 21: http://www.craftbrewersconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2015_presentations/F1540_Darron_Welch.pdf

Atmospheric air is about 210,000 ppm O2 (21%), so 1 ml of air in a 300 ml bottle contains 210,000 / 300 = 700 ppm.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

This time I'll have to make sure to save the source in the filename so I can credit you

So we are looking at at least 12+ purges to get to less than 1ppm!

Yes, at 30 psi purge pressure.

Edit: I have gone to the following process:

1. Fill keg with StarSan
2. Purge headspace about 5X
3. Push StarSan out with CO2
4. Gravity transfer beer to keg thru liquid out post
5. Purge headspace about 5X

Still need to do some calculations on headspace O2 for this process.

Brew on

 

[jddevinn]

The best source I have found talks about "Total Packaged Oxygen" (TPO), and the targets for TPO are under 0.2 ppm (200 ppb.) Check out the following, especially page 21: http://www.craftbrewersconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2015_presentations/F1540_Darron_Welch.pdf

Atmospheric air is about 210,000 ppm O2 (21%), so 1 ml of air in a 300 ml bottle contains 210,000 / 300 = 700 ppm.

Brew on

Checked one of the sources I was thinking about (Brewing Science and Practice Woodhead publishing 2004) and I misquoted. Recommendation is <0.1-0.2mg/L dissolved oxygen. With less than .03mg/l allowable to be picked up during packaging. Above 0.2mg/l, "will quickly develop a cardboard flavour"

1mg/l = 1 ppm

 

[dsniegocki]

You guys are amazing. About the farthest my limited caveman mentality has gone so far is... "oxygen BAD! beer GOOD!"

Always learning on here.

 

[dsniegocki]

I racked my Electric Blonde Ale last night into a corny that I had filled to the rim with One-step solution and sealed, then purged completely with CO2, per some great suggestions above. This had the added benefit of sanitizing the hose connected to the dip tube while it drained out the sanitizer. Otherwise followed my original process. Will it make the beer better? Dunno yet, but it sure made me feel better about O2 exposure. : ) Thanks again to all who posted.

 

[D-Train]

I racked my Electric Blonde Ale last night into a corny that I had filled to the rim with One-step solution and sealed, then purged completely with CO2, per some great suggestions above. This had the added benefit of sanitizing the hose connected to the dip tube while it drained out the sanitizer. Otherwise followed my original process. Will it make the beer better? Dunno yet, but it sure made me feel better about O2 exposure. : ) Thanks again to all who posted.

It works for carboys too. I tried your closed racking technique for a pair of hoppy brews I kegged over the last few days. Previously for hoppy brews I had been doing a closed transfer but pushing co2 into the carboy from a tank which wastes a whole carboy full of co2. This time, I just did it my old way to start the siphon and then switched the line over from the regulator to the gas side of the coupler. It works great, though flow slowed down considerably as it progressed and I ended up switching back to my old way for the final gallon.

Edit to add a few more details:
That's a red carboy cap on top of the carboy with 1 wrap of electrical tape to help ensure seal. A stainless racking can goes through the top port on the carboy cap and runs to the liquid barb on the coupler. The coupler has all check valves removed. The gas barb on the coupler goes to the other port on the red carboy cap. The keg has been completely purged of co2 by filling with starsan and pushing via co2 tank. The carboy was opened twice, once to dry hope and once to put on the red carboy cap at kegging time.

 

[dsniegocki]

It works for carboys too. I tried your closed racking technique for a pair of hoppy brews I kegged over the last few days. Previously for hoppy brews I had been doing a closed transfer but pushing co2 into the carboy from a tank which wastes a whole carboy full of co2. This time, I just did it my old way to start the siphon and then switched the line over from the regulator to the gas side of the coupler. It works great, though flow slowed down considerably as it progressed and I ended up switching back to my old way for the final gallon.

Edit to add a few more details:
That's a red carboy cap on top of the carboy with 1 wrap of electrical tape to help ensure seal. A stainless racking can goes through the top port on the carboy cap and runs to the liquid barb on the coupler. The coupler has all check valves removed. The gas barb on the coupler goes to the other port on the red carboy cap. The keg has been completely purged of co2 by filling with starsan and pushing via co2 tank. The carboy was opened twice, once to dry hope and once to put on the red carboy cap at kegging time.

Nice job. Is that a dual-tap kegerator on a danby-sized fridge? Or is that just the photo perspective giving me fits? : ) I had one in a fridge that small early on, which is why I now have four 2.5 gallon kegs that I never use. Loved it though.

I have since trimmed my liquid line for this process, I notice you've got some slack in yours as well. Perhaps trimming the line to the minimum needed will reduce some friction and help with that last gallon - it definitely helped mine.

 

[D-Train]

Correct, that's the Sanyo 4911. I found it on craigslist for $50 minus the draft hardware and it fits two sanke sixtels perfectly after removing the door shelving and replacing with a smooth panel. It's stacked on top of a Visanni wine fridge that I use to hold a fermenter.